We can hardly br surprised that the feds are interested in what we are up to. This same pattern has played out over and over in many nations throughout history. My great fear is that the attention and surveillence will give way to abuse and detention. Things may get a lot worse before the sleeping giant stirs and acts to reclaim what, everyday, is being stripped from us. Libre de phase ou matrice!

Great article about the Manhattan LP's "Unauthorized Protest"; I missed that one the first time around. That's the kind of boldness, initiative and style we need in the party.

It would not suprise me to find members and leaders of the party to be on a list of people researched by the feds. Stephen Gordon I am glad that you are fighting this and wish you the best of luck with the Freedom of Information Act. It is only a matter of time before the LP is declared a terrorist organization and shut down. This might explain the visits from military computers my site was getting for about a week.

My blog has also been visited by various government sites including military bases and various DC government locations.

The government doesnt have much to fear from the LP the way it is now, but a LP that could attract 10 to 15% of the vote in any given election would warrant far more attention.

Probably just the paper shufflers at the IRS but it is impossible to know for sure.

I have never (To the best of my knowledge) been visited by the government but for a week around the time I was investigating the possibility of some of the hijackers on 9/11 being alive I was visited by military computers. I was using blog explosion at the time and I know some of them came from there and maybe they just happened to tell their friends about my site, who knows.

I LOVE HOW they do not want to release information on John Roberts, does this mean he is an exception to the privacy act rule while the rest of us peons get searched, questioned and whatever else they desire to do to us because we are stuck with mummy controlling goverment.

The word is getting around to put a democrate in as the next president. OK WE NEED TO WORK fast to GET LIBERTARIANS OUT THERE. And we don't need just partial votes, we need more in order to really make a dent

I'm sure they have a couple of lackies watching this blog right now, not to be paranoid or anything(hi guys). I suppose they've got a civilization to hold together and all, which is just fine. I just wonder who decided it was in our best interest to bring back secret police, scare tactics, and agressive domestic espionage. Maybe they just ran out of stuff to do after the cold war. They couldn't sit around eating doughnuts and listening to creedance clearwater revival forever I guess.
Every country that's ever existed has fallen into this at some point. I guess we were being a little foolhardy when we thought we were the exception. As soon as everyone finds something to be afraid of, the witch hunt starts again. I at least hope they put a good picture of me in my file.

I agree with Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Bob Barr they have made it clear the US government will use terrorism as a excuse to expand it powers over our civil liberties and abuse it's powers. The USA Patriot ACT is similar to laws enstated in the Soviet Union and in Moussilini's Italy and Nazi Germany. The Patriot Act is a expansion of government and the intrusion on people's civil liberties. I am a strong opponent of the Patriot ACT.

I AGREE THE SAME. The government will use terrorism as an excuse to take MORE of our freedom, and do everything to us, (the American people) it can, but close the borders. I am sorry that some of the people in the Libertarian may not agree upon closing the borders. But we really have to look at reality, and it may already be too late. We have to consider this seriously. Let along closing the border this alone is not going to be enough. It's not going to matter anymore what is said on paper. What they say and what they really do in regards to our freedom in their own click which is all hush hush and covering all their backs so none of us. (The People) can do a thing about it.

There is a difference between closing borders to lawful immigration purposes and with border security.

A border is similar to a door - designed to welcome friendly people but to keep the bad guys out. Perhaps we should differentiate between the security and immigration functions at the border.

References to "shutting down the borders" make me cringe as much not having adequate security at them. Perhaps if we brought troops home from such hostile countries as Germany, Italy, and England, we could utilize our military for defensive, as opposed to offensive, purposes.

This is starting to get scary. FBI monitoring us? This is disgusting.

Can you blame them? We might actually, you know... have opinions.

The Denver Police Department was sued several years ago (see link) for collecting files on political protestors including the Libertarian Party of Colorado and affiliates. I believe they were ultimately ordered to stop and to make the files available to those observed and not to collect information about protestors unless there were violent threats made by the protestors. (Search for Denver spy files)

The coalition that is the Republican Party needs a "enemy" to justify their warmongering. Remember the Clinton years? The R's were flailing after the fall of the Soviet Union, their justification for the 600 ship navy having been spent under the table and drowning in hypocracy and self contradiction.

We are somewhere between 15 to 25 years away from the same fate, and it wont be terrorism that does us in, it will be a total collapse of the world economy caused by defualt on a massive scale at every level of american finance. When the entire world figures out that a 10 trillion dollar debt can never be repaid, so it's not worth lending us any more money, look out.

We are paying our interest on the debt with the same money we are borrowing! Ask anyone who has played that trick with their credit cards how well it works.....for a short time. Then the compounding interest kills you. And the debt will kill us, unless the LP can tap back into the Perot vote and makes the debt front and center like Perot did. The LP has the moral authority to do this, unlike the parties that put us in this mess.

Daniel:

The link did not take. Would you mind reposting it?

Stephen, I used my URL space for my previous post on "Denver Spy Files" for the link to http://www.aclu-co.org/spyfiles/chronology.htm (not sure if links are stripped from comment text or if there is a limit on the number of URLs contained). Other relevant links include http://www.freecolorado.com/2002/09/spyfiles.html http://www.lpboulder.com/articles/lpco-press-releases/spy.html and http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1022-06.htm (for other examples of those included in the spy sweep).

Small thread jack:

I have written the webmaster repeatedly with this question. Mayhap one of you bloggers can give me the answer.

How come on our platform page we link to the ACLU? Both the FREE SPEECH and PRIVICY links have ACLU links. There is a disclaimer that we two groups don't always agree on things but a tacit approval of them by including their link on our platform page.

How come on the GUN LAWS page there is not a link to the NRA with the same disclaimer? Our Gun Laws platform could have been written by the NRA it is so close to what they say. Why the support for one civil rights group and not for the older and more principled civil right group?

Can someone with more understanding of how the LP policies are set inform me?

Pavel
Pavel@uark.edu

I would say because the NRA has become more like a gun manufacturing lobbist group and less like a second amendment advocacy group. They will make compromise on certain gun control legislation as long as it doesn't cut into the bottom line of their donors.

I've watched you.

Pavel,

I can't speak for LP blog policy, as I just make a blog entry here from time to time, and am not directly involved in the management of the website. I can tell you my related personal experiences, which might help.

When managing the Russo campaign, and working on (including setting blog policy in the latter days) the Badnarik campaign, I faced these same decisions.

To begin, it is to be noted that Bob Barr, referenced in the blog entry above, is on the board of the NRA, and very active in the ACLU.

I don't mind linking to "fellow travelers" if they generally aren't working against me. To some degree, the ACLU is a strong ally, but sometimes they are in opposition to a few of my political agenda. Therefore, I generally have to make a decision based upon their most recent notable activities. In the case of the ACLU, the LP is in general agreement with their Gitmo, Patriot Act, privacy and other activities. This one is always a tough call for me, though.

With the NRA, the situation is clearly different. In addition to a weak stance on gun control, at times, they generally directly support our political opposition.

A look at the NRA site during the previous presidential election cycle would have clearly indicated their support of Bush, although Bush had publicly stated that he would sign the assault weapon ban if it was enacted by the congress - despite two presidential candidates (Badnarik and Peroutka) who had a platform and public statements actually inline with the NRA's stated agenda.

It has long been my premise that the NRA has long been merely a political arm for the GOP, especially at the presidential level.

When I see them supporting, as opposed to combating, Libertarian candidates, I'll be happy to give them proper credit.

"I don't mind linking to "fellow travelers" if they generally aren't working against me. To some degree, the ACLU is a strong ally, but sometimes they are in opposition to a few of my political agenda. Therefore, I generally have to make a decision based upon their most recent notable activities. In the case of the ACLU, the LP is in general agreement with their Gitmo, Patriot Act, privacy and other activities. This one is always a tough call for me, though.
With the NRA, the situation is clearly different. In addition to a weak stance on gun control, at times, they generally directly support our political opposition.
A look at the NRA site during the previous presidential election cycle would have clearly indicated their support of Bush, although Bush had publicly stated that he would sign the assault weapon ban if it was enacted by the congress - despite two presidential candidates (Badnarik and Peroutka) who had a platform and public statements actually inline with the NRA's stated agenda."

I missed where ACLU supported Badnarik during the campaign. In fact as I remember reading their propaganda during the recent election they were firmly a active arm of the DNC. They are even more political than the NRA, just they support your bias.

"It has long been my premise that the NRA has long been merely a political arm for the GOP, especially at the presidential level."

Your primise is awfully one sided. They do not support the left so you see them as your foe. And as political as the NRA may be it is nothing compared to the ACLU's political actions.

During the Clinton years the ACLU was one of the White Houses enforcers. What you are saying is that since the NRA mostly supports the party you don't vote for when you can't vote Libertarian they are just a political arm. But as the ACLU supports the party, in all it's machinations, that you vote for when you can't vote Libertarian then they are a free and un-biased organization. Your Bias are showing.

"When I see them supporting, as opposed to combating, Libertarian candidates, I'll be happy to give them proper credit."

Again, Since when has the ACLU endorsed the LP candidate? As that is your test for fellow travelers. The ACLU directly supports our opposition.

Pavel

Timothy West,

You are predicting a another great depression like I have. If we keep on the course of endless wars and endless deficit spending our country's economy will end up in shambles like the German empire after WWI were the german economy had unimaginable high inflation to point were bread costed millions in US currency. The two idealogies that will destroy a country Interventionist foregin policies and Socialism. It's seems no one learns from history and people make the same mistakes over and over again. Any nation that uses any interventionist foreign policy like Imperialism like Germany or Globalism the result for that country will be disastorus.

The PATRIOT Act of 2001 is akin to the Enabling Act of 1933 in that the liberties of individuals are in grave danger.

Also, the PATRIOT Act has as much to do with improving national security as the Soviet Constitution did with preserving individual liberties. None whatsoever.

Stronger border and coastal security is badly needed. Unfortunately, this is a foreign concept to those currently in power and their many predecessors.

It's f***in' sad that we have to fear our government more than the terrorists, even in light of the London attacks. Call me crazy, but the PATRIOT Act doesn't make me safer.

The Patriot ACT is similar laws to anti-communist laws in 1910's and 1920's which leads to cases of government abuse of power like the Sacco and Vancetti case. The Patriot Act and The National ID will never make anyone safe because it will not stop any terrorist from smuggling in a dirty bomb in from Mexico and detonating it in New York, LA,Washington, DC. The Patriot ACT and The National ID card will be used for more as a Fascist Police State tactics to spy on people and lock up law-biding citizens. The National ID card has nothing to do with protecting borders. The borders will remain unsupervised even when all of us have the ID Card. The LP plank Leaving the borders unsupervised when the LP is in power won't change the fact there will be violent or dieased immigrants and terrorists coming across the borders. If the LP wants to became a strong third party alternative. The open borders plank does not suit our country in this age of terrorism and violent illegal immigrants. I am a member at the national level and I will be hear to help the LP become a true alternative to the 2 party system

Hear was meant Here

I wouldn't put too much paranoia on visits from government sites. After all, just because you work on a govenment site does not mean you are some kind of government operative. Heck, my post here will show up being from a government site. Not all of use who work for the government in some capacity have any support for legislation like the PATRIOT Act. There are plenty more libertarians out there that work for the government as well. You can count us on the side of the good guys who don't have a problem with seeing our own jobs dissappear if it means smaller government.

I'm against most of the patriot act, but I am for the sharing of intelligence between FBI and CIA. They could just pass something different for that, though, and repeal the patriot act and I would be happy. Barring that I'll take just a repealment. The Patriot act does far more damage than any good it does.

Hey wait, I'm against the Patriot act, that makes me unpatriotic, right? ;)

Im for rounding up people like james sensenbrenner, george bush, colin powell, dick cheney and the rest of the war criminals and throwing them into a tank full of alligators. This assault on our freedoms is beginning to piss me off. What this government is doing is criminal and should be dealt with as such. WelL, maybe we had better scratch that alligator thing........No sence in punishing the gators by making them sick. Lets just drop the entire bush administration out of a helicopter over iraq and let the iraqui's give justice in their own suttle way by removing their heads. The only reason the government wants this patriot act is simply because the United States government has butchered so many foreigners that the united states government needs a way to protect themselves from something far worse than a good old fashioned linch mob. The whole world looks at this pathetic government with disgust........AS THEY SHOULD. George bush and his scumbag war criminal administration needs to be brought to justice in a way that all future administrations can understand.

This patriot act would not be nessessary if this scumbag government would simply mind its own business. The netherlands does not have a patriot act, and neither does new zealand and many other countries. WHY? Because they dont stick their nose into the private lives of other people as our government has done for decades. The problem is that our government has deliberately caused people world wide to hate our guts . Our government is now in the process of causing its own taxpayers to hate their guts as well. Nobody but a republicrat or democrat could actually be that stupid.

Hey, hey, hey.

Our government isn't perfect, far from it. Our system is extremely flawed. But we're still the best country with the best government on the face of the planet, and hurling insults at big government, congress, the administration, your city councilman or anyone else does nothing to improve the nation.

Republicans and Democrats are by and large good people, with good intentions, intentions which they apply horribly and don't think through, intentions that pave the path to hell. They aren't stupid, they're just wrong. And many Republicans and Democrats can be shown the light of Liberty, but no one will respond to blind rhetoric like yours.

Posted by: Josh Ondich at July 25, 2005 01:29 AM

MY HATS OFF TO YOU. THANK YOU FOR THAT POST.
ARE YOU SOMEONE WHO COULD CONSIDER RUNNING FOR FICE.

To Paul P. We will not be the best country for long, the way things are going. And things are moving in a negative direction very fast.

No, Democrats and Republicans are very intelligent, selfish, and short-sighted.

To Paul P.: I agree with your post about the majority parties wholeheartedly. Telling people they are stupid is no way to win them over to our side. Explaining to them how America could me a more prosperous and free society would definitely be more effective.

CLINTON BEGINS 2008 PRESIDENTAL ELECTION

COLUMBUS, Ohio - Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday the nation has "gone off track" in

this is in YAHOO NEWS> and WHAT ARE WE DOING FOR OUR 2008 election AT LEAST MAYBE A LIBERTARIAN VP.

No paul p. yer wrong. The democrats and republicrats have turned our free, peace loving nation into a cesspool of political filth, and yes they are stupid. They are not misguided. They didn't just make a mistake. The united states constitution and bill of rights is very self explanitory and any POLITICIAN who does not understand the meaning of freedom has no right leading anyone, anytime, EVER. Yes paul, THEY ARE STUPID. They know the difference between freedom and democracy as opposed to communism and socialism. Yes paul P. THEY ARE STUPID

For Freedom,
I like that name. I plan to in the future to run for office and If I run for office i will be a Libertarian on that ballot. I apperciate there are more people like me out there. I think for now we the LP need to get ready for tuesday because there is a big election for the LP in San Diego. I know i do not live in San Diego or anybody on this blog, but the mayor election will be a milestone for the LP if the LP candidate Richard Rider wins it. it would be the first time a Libertarian is mayor of a major city.

intentions that pave the path to hell? Our government isn't perfect, far from it? Our system is extremely flawed? They aren't stupid, they're just wrong? And many Republicans and Democrats can be shown the light of Liberty? Well paul P. Try giving these stupid jerks a copy of the united states constitution and the bill of rights and get some good hearted, freedom loving libertarians to explain the meaning of these documents to our misguided senators and congressmen. It sure is funny how these guys managed to get dumber over many decades. Our government isn't perfect and it isn't constitutional either. You smarten them up and I will show them respect. But Until then....They are stupid.

josh ondich.......Thankyou for the comment. Yes I am considering running for office very soon.I will run as a LIBERTARIAN and will meet my challengers head on in face to face public meetings (IF THEY HAVE THE GUTS TO SHOW UP).If they don't, I will take my arguments to the newspapers and the public. I don't advocate violence of any sort. It's time for people who want freedom to stand up and demand freedom instead of waiting for these mis-guided socialist leaders of ours to come to terms with the fact that they are destroying our constitution and bill of rights. Hope the LP wins in sandiego. The only way to stop our country from sliding into negative territory is to take a stand NOW and fight to regain our freedoms while paul P. tries to persuade the democrats and republicrats that they are just mis-guided.

Democrats and Republicans are not stupid, they are greedy and corrupt. They will do anything for power and to maintain it. even If it means taking away our civil liberties through scare tactics and drafting 18 year old men and women into a Vietnam like unconstitutional war. Who do you think is there first priority them or us? The Patriot ACT and The War in Iraq is a tactic for them to remain in power as long as they can. The Democrats and Republicans will do anything to keep themselves in office. When you look at a Democrat or Republican candidate remember there looking out for themseleves not me or you. Ron Paul is not one of them he is one of us. If he wasn't then he would have never been our LP Presidential Candidate in 1988 and currently a board member of the advocates for self-government or publicly praise the LP. The Typical power hungary Democrat or Republican don't praise third parties and dislike third parties.

Jim,
I hope your campaign is very successful where ever it is and the LP staff reading your statement would be glad to hear that. I have some advise to Paul P I have talked to both Democrat and Republican supporters and some of them are very close minded. The Congress is 1000 times worse, so wasting money copies on constitutions for congreessmen won't work they will probably ignore it or us it for propoganda or have a interpretation of the Bill of Rights that is not the real interpretation. They will do it. Don't waste your money for them or time, but put it to a real useful cause like The LP.

It amazes me that with all this talk about the patriot act being a tool that government uses to destroy our constitution, Why is it that the LIBERTARIAN party has not run full page ads in the nations leading newspapers demanding a stop to this assault on our individual rights? We need a LIBERTARIAN leader to get out there and talk to the media in an attempt to educate the masses to the assult that is being carried out by the republicrats and democrats to our sacred constitution and bill of rights.Lets get with it LP. Lets make some noise and start running full page adds in major newspapers.If you don't do it, who will? If it's donations you need, then ask for them.

Paul P,
I think the US having the Best Government on the Planet is a exaggeration. The US has the Bill of Rights which is the best in the world. When it comes to elections and education that's where were in the toilet. France and Germany have open elections that allow multiple parties get elected. A multi-party system is a advantage to the LP then what we have now. Education is in the toilet because of bearucaracy and too much involvement by the government which hurts teachers and students and parents. The only people who create negativity by people about the government is the government. I argee with this quote by Ronald Regan " Government is not the solution to the problem Government is the problem" He was the only president who came close to a Libertarian. We the LP need more solutions to fix our rigged election system and improve education. I like the current proposals,but we still need to keep to our goal of becoming the alternative to the 2 party system

The LP is not going to call the other parties names in their campiagns and Campaigns is were we will show other people what we have to offer to make america better, but there will be some areas on the internet like the LP blog were people will from time to time stress dislike for Big Government and the 2 party system. If it was a insults on a commerical than I would have a problem because that would jeporadise our party, but The LP blog is for opinions not a news source. Blog are not meant to be for news updates, they are opinion sections like mine.

We are a long way from having the best government on earth, as we have went backwards from where we were back in the twenties. Our elected officials are trying every dirty trick imaginable to destroy the voice of third party candidates. It is a given that in a free country where all men are created equal, We should ALL be given a voice in government, based upon our personal beliefs as a political party. After all, we supposedly live a free society where people of all faiths, nationalities and political beliefs are to be represented equally. We are supposed to have OPEN, FAIR, HONEST and un-suppressed elections that allows all MEN AND WOMEN to be represented by leaders of their choosing. This has not been allowed to happen in any of our major elections. What we have in this country is an election process that allows people like george bush and john kerry to recieve national attention while they suppress, and arrest presidential candidates like MICKAEL BADNARIK for demanding his constitutional right to debate with the other parties representatives in a national forum that is paid for by TAXPAYER money. george bush and john kerry broke the law when they used my money to have a national debate that excluded MY candidate (MR. MICHAEL BADNARIK) as well as mr. cobbs, the green party candidate from a taxpayer funded NATIONAL debate. Thats about as illegal as King george bush handing my taxpayer dollars to certain religious organizations when there is a clear separation between church and state. (not to mention that my tax dollars were never intended to go to non profit religious orgaizations in the first place). The point is that this government is the first to cry foul when some other country suppresses their peoples right to have fair, open, honest and un-biased elections for the rights of individual liberty and freedom, yet in their usual two faced way, our governmnet continues its assault on our election process by trying to destroy the voice of third party open elections. Other countries have got to be seeing this government for the two faced thugs that they are, after all. this is a world wide web with far reaching information. Anybody from china, russia, iran,syria, panama, cuba or north korea care to weigh in on this subject?

Tito.....Explaining to them how America could be a more prosperous and free society would definitely be more effective?.......I think not. The LIBERTARIAN party has been in business for almost 3 decades. They have been explaining freedom and prosperity to our politicians for almost 30 years and all the democrats and republicans have learned from our teachings is how to suppress third parties so that no one hears this message of freedom. Our politicians have our military sitting in the sovereign nation of iraq, destroying human life in an un-winnable second viet nam in an attempt to bestow freedom upon those who are lucky enoug to have survived our so called shock and awe. You continue to believe that you can change the socialist two party system with kindness and hugs. The rest of us libertarians who believe in freedom will continue educating the masses against the assaults on our freedoms by the two party system.

The arrest of Michael Badnarik was uncalled for. Michael Badnarik was arrested for just showing up at the debate. He was not rioting or being a distrubance. Gary Nolan during the convention was stopped by airport security because they thought he was Gary Nolan Craig a suspected terrorist that was on the federal government watch list. It is insane. The Faith-Based initiative is unconstitutional because the government was not meant to fund religious groups reguardless of what the religious groups believe. Like the First Admendment says " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". The Faith Based Inititative was passed by Congress which violated the First Admendment. The only people who really support that Faith-Based intiative is Republican Bible Thumpers. I am not to pleased with faith based inititative because of i am a advocate of the bill of right and The Constitution. I believe the government needs to follow by the bill of rights instead of using the Bill of Rights and the Constitution as a decoration at fourth of july or at history lessons. The US Bill of Rights is not a Decoration to me it is the rule of law which protects the people from intrusive government.

I have to agree with Paul P. on a couple of points.

First of all, Republicans and Democrats are NOT stupid. In fact, those who think of them as stupid are guilty of underestimating them. They believe they are acting out of their own sense of patriotism. They are wrong on very many issues, but that doesn't make them stupid. It just makes them wrong.

Second, we do have the greatest country in the world. This doesn't mean that our country isn't slipping badly and in long-term danger of turning totalitarian, but that still doesn't prevent it from being the greatest country. After all, the other countries are even worse.

I also agree that hurling insults at the government and its supporters does nothing for liberty.

Please note that Paul did not say that he agreed with big government and its supporters. He was merely expressing his respect for them as people.

Don't point your anger at Paul just because you don't like the direction the country is headed in. Paul spoke truth, and I commend him for it. We must learn to not make the battle for liberty a personalities issue. There are so many ways we can fight injustice. Name-calling and mud-throwing don't have to be among those ways.

James,
Would you be willing to donate for a full page ad in a major newspaper? If so, then please do.

On the original topic of this blog, I think that with all of the issues we are trying to combat today, this is definitely the most dire, because it moves us further away from liberty. Issues like medical marijuana and eminent domain are very serious, but let's be honest...they don't hold a candle to the Patriot Act when it comes sliding even further away from the Bill of Rights. After all, medical marijuana has been outlawed for more than a generation, and violations of the 5th amendment under eminent domain have been going on for more than a decade. But the Patriot Act is relatively new by comparison, and it is currently in the news.

The question is: what can we do to combat it?

One thing is to join the efforts of organizations like Downsize DC to lobby the Senate about it.

I think we also need to educate ourselves and others about the various ways that the Patriot Act is currently being used to violate individual rights. This includes ferreting out and publishing as many examples as we can find of people whose rights are being violated by the Federal Government under the Patriot Act.

No sir, we do not have the best country on earth. There are many countries who do not use their military to butcher innocent people. The united states government is systematically destroying the peaceful spirit of this free nation and the libertarian party does not have a chance in hell of turning this country around. Democrats and republicrats can't be very smart as they continue to vote for the very same people who deliberately destroy our freedoms. James is not underestimating democrats and republicans. He is merely pointing out that because they are in power, and have somehow forgotten how the constitution works, they must not be very smart when the constitution is a very easy to read document. Especially for politicians who pride themselves on understanding freedom. They seem quite stupid too me as well.

Chris. Get out your checkbook and I will match your donation just as soon as the libertaian party sets up a fund for the purpose of educating the masses.

Shane,
I'd say the only solution to the issue. Is not sitting on our butts complaning or try to reeducate the Democrat and Republican leadership about the Constitution. Let's We The LP nominate and run candidates that are educated on the Constitution. What's done is done with the Two Party system. If you want real changes like I do. The LP need to be active political party instead of a group of people who run for office on random years then complain the rest of the time. We can talk all we want on this blog, but during election year oppurtunities actions need to speak louder than words. Is anybody with me on this solution? I think you and the rest of the staff are great but there is ways to go and we need to remain proactive.

Mike says that we do not have the best country on earth because we have a history of butchering large amounts of people. While I agree that we have that history, I disagree that that is the only criterion of "the best country."

The best evidence I can think of to back my belief is that Mike hasn't chosen to move to another country. He has chosen to remain here. As a rational libertarian, I would expect him to do what he thinks is best for himself. If living in the best country is truly important to him, he would choose to live in the country he considers to be the best.

There are many positive reasons for living in this country that Mike glossed over and ignored in his post. The bottom line is that Mike has chosen to stay. I think it's fair to consider his actions a vote for America as the best country, despite its many warts.

On a more local scale, we could get a group of LP members together and attend a service at the nearest local mosque, as a demonstration of solidarity. I wonder if they will let us in?

has anyone else been targeted for "extra screening" at airports since joining the LP? I was never screened until I joined, now I am screned all the time...just curious

Tim Croweley,
Were not Jane Fonda, Our party does not preach or give solidarity to terrorists. the LP is not anti-american we just have differnce of opinion with the Repuublican Party on foregin policy, doing such thing ruins our reputation as party and people would not take us seriously.

A negative attitude about the LP destroys other people's confidence when they hear other people getting bent out of shape and making remarks like that. I always in my statements always try to put good things about the LP because other members and people seeing this site will think there are people who are determined to make the LP a real choice at the polls. Mike's statement is saying to me in negative view like everything is hopeless. The situation with government and foregin policy is not hopeless. The LP just needs a I Can DO approach with the solutions to the problems. There will be times were it seems we can't do anything. The LP is a political party not a group of people on the sidelines. we got over 600 elected officials more than any other third party. we broke vote records with over one million votes for lp candidates for congress that haven't been done by a third party in about 60-70 years. the LP is better than ever before. We need to keep breaking records and wining elections. I think joining the LP is one of the best decisions I ever made. I am glad 1,700 more people renewed membership or joined the LP. 2005 was a record year for the LP because of record increase membership during a off-year If we can keep this up look at 2006 a election year will bring us when people are finding candidates and parties to vote for.

NO IN NO WAY DO NOT INCLUDE JANE FONDA. I hear to many talks from veterans and people alike, they have not and some will not forgive her for what happened in Vietnam. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
We do NOT NEED to be look at negative in any way right now.

Lets get those 1,700 people to invite and talk to one other person and then so on and so on. 1,700 could become 2,700

Tim asked about extra screening when he flies. Michael Badnarik reported during last year's campaign that he was screened every time he flew. He was told that once you "randomly" get on a certain list, you're always screened every time you fly.

Tim Crowley wrote: "On a more local scale, we could get a group of LP members together and attend a service at the nearest local mosque, as a demonstration of solidarity. I wonder if they will let us in?"

Josh Ondich replied: "Tim Croweley, Were not Jane Fonda, Our party does not preach or give solidarity to terrorists."

That's exactly the sort of statement good Libertarians should NOT be making. It is highly prejudiced and unjustified by the facts, and it demonstrates your own bigotry against Muslims. 99.9% of the world's Muslims are not terrorists. Therefore, visiting a local mosque does not automatically show solidarity with terrorists. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Libertarian TV,
I am not saying Muslims are terrorists, but alot of Americans do look at people who go to mosques to give solidarity to islam as traitors to our country. Do not hate Islam or middle easterners,but your starting sound like a Liberal Democrat. You probably advocate Affirmative Action which supporters think it makes up for past descriminations, but it is Socialist and it allows the government to control businesses.

Libertarian tv. Just because a person choses not to leave a country that he was born in, bought his home in and raised his children in, has absolutely nothing to do with how he feels about his country, or the people who run it. You would prefer to overlook the atrocities being committed by the united states government and it's military and thats fine. It may not be worth mentioning that the united states government is attempting to shove its will down the throats of sovereign nations such as iran, iraq, north korea and syria while the U.S government praise terrorist states as well as nucleur states such as pakistan and india, as well as giving billions to the terrorist state of israel. It is your business if you choose to ignore the fact that the united states government gave iraq almost every weapon of mass destruction that saddamn aquired and used against his people, the irainians and the kuwaitis.(Ths act alone makes the united states a sponsor of terrorism). This country has caused unbelievable death and destruction to soverneign nations and innocent people throughout the world and people like you choose to ignore that fact. You do it for one reason and one reason only. You don't want to upset the republicans and democrats that you believe can be swayed over to the libertarian party. I have no intention of leaving my country libertarian tv, but I also have no intention of watching this government commit attrocities on a world wide scale while I remain passive as you choose to do. This government is not some wonderful entity who just makes a mistake on occasion. It is full of butchers who slaughter human beings, and that, my friend makes it something less than the greatest country on earth. I will stay here in this country even though I dont I believe its the greatest on earth because its MY country, not the governments.

Second, we do have the greatest country in the world. This doesn't mean that our country isn't slipping badly and in long-term danger of turning totalitarian, but that still doesn't prevent it from being the greatest country. After all, the other countries are even worse............Nice try libertarian tv. This government is not slipping badly. They are committing human slaughter. There is nothing long turm about our totalitarian society? You need to check out the permanent extension of the patriot act. It is no longer a four year act, it is PERMANENT. We have become totalitarian. Take a minute and look around you. Cameras on stop lights,light poles and intersections all over the country? The FBI checking into peoples reading habbits at the library? Secret searches of peoples homes without their knowledge? Earth to libertarian tv.Wake up.

The Bush family was partners with Saddam Huessin in the 1980's . The US government has always been allies and given money to tirannical leaders. in the 1940's the US were allies with Joesph Stalin. The CIA actually put dictators in power in Centeral American nations. The US was best allies with the Shah of Iran who torture his people. The US funded Ossama Bin Ladden in 1989 to help him and his army kick out the Soviets in Afganistan. The money the US government has used to fund these people were are own taxpayer's money. We gave the Saudi Royal Family money for their country and it went to terrorist groups. It's was US taxpayers money that went to terrorist groups. sad part this is the facts. Our Government's foregin policy gets our own people and soliders killed. If the US government kept their nose out of other countries business 9/11 and the war in Iraq would have never happened. You can get mad and call me a anti-american or scream go bush, but it does not change the facts about the US government's foregin policy.

Libertarian TV,
Who are you defending the Democrats or Republicans. .The 2 party system will not cater to your interest. They only care about money and power. They only cater to their interests. They don't care about you or me. The 2 party system will step over anyone just so they can get what they want. Libertarian TV like your nickname the Libertarian Party is the place you wan't to support.

Posted by: at July 28, 2005 10:47 PM with no name

Your post makes me wonder if your even a true american. I doubt it. You must of been raised in another country. This country is slipping. Your english is abominable.

Posted by: true american at July 29, 2005 12:48 AM

Your statement making accusations and questioning people's patriotism is what Republican Talk Show host's like Sean Hannity does to people who do not believe in the War in Iraq or the Republican Party. This country is heading on a downward path I do agree with you on that, but questioning people's patriotism like Sean Hannity is pretty low. All of US should respect other people's opinions without insults or questioning their patriotism. It does not matter If that person is from another country or not. If that person is a lawbidding citizen then He or She has a right to their opinion.

Josh: your black-and-white thinking will be your undoing. Just because I criticized you for your clearly prejudiced statement, you concluded that I was anti-libertarian and pro-Republicrat. I am neither, and you are wrong.

Being Libertarian means believing in liberty, including free speech. You are free to spout your prejudices, and I'm free to call you on them. However, being Libertarian also means believing in people as individuals and not judging them by their ethnic or religious grouping. For instance, I don't think you realize just how insulting your comments were to Muslim Libertarians. Yes, believe it or not, there are quite a number of them. One of them is Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad of Washington, DC, who goes by Dean Ahmad. Dean is a passionate supporter of liberty, but he is also a very religious man who prayers five times daily in the traditional Muslim way. His mosque would welcome a group of Libertarians as Tim Crowley suggested.

But in your ignorance and insensitivity, you rejected that possibility without a second thought, and you dissed many very honest, decent, and respectable people as a result. You rejected a very real opportunity to encourage more Muslims to become Libertarians, simply because you couldn't see past your own prejudices. That's pathetic.

Mike, I'm glad to hear it, but I do have a question. Would you please name a country that would be a better country to live in?

Switzerland, Iceland, maybe New Zealand

Posted by: The libertarian Reformer at July 29, 2005 03:03 AM

Thank you you just answered my question.
It's interesting tht when it comes allowing people in this country they don't respect us.
In california did the Mexicans raise American Flags no. They raised Mexico Flags. Maybe it will become Mexico California.
When the Middle east people are plentiful will they raise american flag. My guess it will be muslim flags.
You get enough people of a certain culture and very few of us left we won't have a choice we will be the minority. oh yea, I guess we already are. So much for this country. or whats left of it.

True American, your attitude is astonishing. Does the term "melting pot" mean anything to you?

I would like to challenge the LIBERTARIAN PARTY to set up a fund to run ads in national publications[eg USA Today] and major newspapers[NY Times, Wash Post etc] to get the LP message out concerning issues that threaten our freedoms. Be it the patriot act, idiotic legislation or anything that threatens our independence. In order to get people involved they need to know how to get involved to make their voice heard. I have strong feelings about these issues but have no way to channel my frustrations effectively. My hope[and checkbook] are with the LP but we need to be more effective and unified with our message! Bickering and accusations won't get the job done.

Add to that YAHOO NEWS. MSN NEWS.
LA TIMES, ORANGE COUNTY PAPER. don't waste money on back door things. Lets go for the top papers. a few of those is better then many small backdoor papers that half don't even get notice.
And everyone who is a member word of mouth where ever you go. I like to see this site updated with java in the torch of burning flames.

Libertarian TV,
You asking people which countries are better to live in besides the US. Me personally do not hate this country one bit. It is the US government that is the cause of criticism, not America. asking people which country is better than the US. You and Tim Croweley's ideas would seem like your trying to turn your back on this country. I only critize the government because of their corrupt action, but going to mosques where probably radical cleriks are present and preach solidarity to them. Asking people what other countries are better than the US. mainstream society would look at the LP suspiciously and distrustful if the LP did things like that. It is best the LP stays in the campaign sector and on the internet. The mosque thing to me is political susicide for the Libertarian Party.

Libertarian TV,
There maybe a few muslim Libertarians which I do not mind. They should come to our conventions. I am only concerened about publicy advirtising going to mosques. I don't care If we have muslim members in our party. Tim Croweley's mosque idea is alot worst than the ACLU showing up to protest the minutemen project in Tombstone, Arizona.If it does occur I would not go because I have to much respect for the United States of America. Holding this event is going too far.

To The Libertarian Reformer: I agree with you that the problem in America is the government, not the country. It's the main reason I'm a Libertarian. If someone is going to condemn America on this blog as a lousy place to live, while insisting on continuing to live here, he should have to defend that proposition. That's all I was doing...insisting that he defend his position.

However, I must strongly disagree with your assertion about Muslim mosques. First of all, your attitude is wrong. Instead of not caring if a few Muslims join our party, you should be concentrating on trying to encourage ALL Muslims to join our party.

But that's not the worst of your position. The worst of it is that you are proposing that Libertarians should give in to unjustified public fear that has been carefully encouraged by the Bush administration and other Republicrat politicians.

Officially, Bush came out after 9/11 saying that we shouldn't condemn Muslims for what a few fanatics have done. Since then, his every effort has been at targeting Muslims without actually saying so, while generating and playing off the fear that is developing among Americans about Muslims.

Did you know that the vast majority of American mosques issued press releases after 9/11 condemning the attack and the attackers? Of course you didn't. The reason you didn't know this is the same reason our party gets so frustrated every four years: the media simply didn't report it. A large number American Muslim organizations contacted every media outlet they could find a phone number, fax number, or address for to announce their condemnation of the attackers. They were uniformly ignored by the media. As Libertarians, we should recognize this sort of blackout.

But the most important reason of all for me to condemn your proposal regarding mosques is that it just isn't right. It's morally wrong. We have long stood up on unpopular issues like medical marijuana, the draft, the income tax, Social Security, etc. 25 years ago, when I first became a Libertarian, if I mentioned ending Social Security to anyone, I got dirty , distrustful looks and outright rejection of the idea that Social Security was a Ponzi scheme. Today, that situation has changed somewhat. The majority are still married to Social Security, but the percentage of supporters have shrunk dramatically. Why did this happen? In large part, it happened because of the inherent instability of the Social Security concept, but it also happened because the LP and other libertarian organizations had the balls to speak out on the issue when no one else was paying any attention to it.

We should not allow fear to dissuade us from reaching out to Muslim Americans. We should stand up for them in the knowledge that they are being unjustly victimized by a war-mongering President and Congress.

Sorry regarding getting all muslim to join our party. It should not be just about getting votes. It should also what kind of country we want to live in. What kind of culture. It's bad enough we have the government choking us at our throats, we don't need the muslim as well. There are certain culture that has an imbreaded way of thinking and to change that. Good Luck.

True American: That's what they said about the Irish immigrants in the 19th Century and early 20th Centuries. It's also what they said about the Italian, Polish, and Russian immigrants. To this day, the Irish parade in Boston and New York, flying their flags. Today, we think nothing of it.

In the 1930's, 1940's, and early 1950's it was the Jews, who were escaping religious intolerance in Europe only to encounter more of it here in America. A great deal was made about the ways they were screwing up American culture. Today, we think nothing of it.

In the 1960's it was the Puerto Ricans who were villified. Their impact is documented in the famous musical, "West Side Story." Today, we think nothing of it.

Today it's the Muslims, who are still a tiny minority of about 3 million in this country. They are being villified by the actions of a few extreme nutcases. Like the Irish, Poles, Italians, Jews, Puerto Ricans, and every other ethnic and religious group that came to this country before them, they came here seeking freedom, fleeing war, famine, dictatorship, disease, and poverty.

This country was founded by immigrants. The early English and Dutch settlers were all immigrants. Your screen name is amusing, because chances are good you are not a "Native American." Chances are excellent that even if you do have "Native American" blood your veins, most of your blood comes from immigrant blood. In a very real sense, you are just as much an immigrant as they are. Yet, you villify the current group of immigrants for what they might do to our culture, and you do so in the name of being a "true American."

As John Stossel might say, "Give me a break!"

Will our culture be affected by the Muslim-Americans? Sure. Will some of it be negative? Of course. That's nothing new. Will our culture survive and be better for it? Absolutely yes.

I will welcome muslims into the LP, but we need to look at other people like more black members and more white members or anybody who wants to join in general is welcomed. We need all groups. I am for all new members reguardless of background, race or sex. The Libertarian Party is a great political party with a great LP staff like Shane Cory and Joe Seehusen. I want all members to join to have the same great experience I have as a LP national member. I think LP news is a great newspaper. I encourage anyone who is thinking joining about the Libertarian Party to join.

Let me explain something NO ONE IN THIS WHOLE PLANET HELPED THE JEWISH people, when the Holocust happened. They have been persecuted in more way they some people could ever have imagined throughout history. The time that
America step in was because they felt threatened by NAZI GERMANY otherwise they would have stayed out.
TO GET TECHNICAL it was some European/Whites who came to america and didn't SHARE THIS AMERICAN LAND WITH THE INDIANS they TOOK FROM THE INDIANS and this is what we have today. that keeps going and going until this place will eventually be eviromentally destroyed and controlled and walking around with something up the you know where.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

True American, I think you're angry just for the sake of being angry. You lose the thrust of a conversation, avoid your own contradictions, then rail against others for imaginary slights.

I don't disagree with what you've written most recently, although I see no reason for you to be so angry about it. In fact, nothing I wrote contradicted it. Yet, you seem to have forgotten that you were bemoaning Muslim influence on culture, and when I attempted to paint a broader picture to show that Muslim-Americans will work out just fine, you treated my attempt as if I has slighted the Jews. Incredible!

----------

Libertarian Reformer, I agree with your statement completely.

Libertarian tv. It makes no difference if there is a better country to live in or not. What matters is the fact that this government is not only destroying our freedoms, they are butchering human beings all over the world. That makes our government a bunch of sadistic war criminals and it puts a damn dim light on our country as a whole. There are many good countries around the world who do not butcher people on a world wide scale in the name of PEACE and security. This government has a long way to go to clean up the dissastrous affects that the two party system has done to world opinion, and until that happens we will never be seen as the greatest country on earth ever again, eccept by a few people who refuse to see that what we are doing in iraq and other nations is sick beyond comprehension. This government has reduced this nation to the level of nazi germany. Butchering human life is the same in any language. This shit has went on long enough and its time for the citizens of this country too stop ignoring these atrocities by the united states government and put there sorry asses in a prison cell where they belong.......and then hope to god that the rest of the world doesn't set off a nucleur weapon in a couple of our cities....Understand?

Libertarian tv wrote: If someone is going to condemn America on this blog as a lousy place to live, while insisting on continuing to live here, he should have to defend that proposition. That's all I was doing...insisting that he defend his position........You want me to defend my possision and yet you can sit there and call america the greatest country on earth when you know damn well that this government has used its central intelligence agency to influence the internal workings of dozens of sovereign nations governments. Our government has supported the shah of iran. They supported the butchering of saddamn hussein while he was attacking another nation, (iran). This government butchered men, women and children at waco texas. This government butchered men, women and children at ruby ridge idaho after they set randy weaver up on weapons charges. This government took this whole country away from the indians and forced them onto reservations. This country shoved the mexicans back across the border into mexico and butchered those who chose to fight for what was there land during early westward settlement. This country has butchered so damn many people that its become another nazi germany over many decades with no end in sight. Remember vietnam? Another illegal war.This country has stolen, pillaged and bullied there way thru history to get where we are now. How about if you defend your possition mr. libertarian tv. Go ahead, tell how this country being run by war criminals, traitors and butchers constitutes being the greatest country on earth. Tell us how its so much better than lets say china, who likes to run its citizens over with tanks? I know, our government just burns their citizens to death and shoots those who try to escape the flames as they did at waco texas. Maybe we are better than russia who butchers chechnians for wanting independence. After all, our country has an open policy of cessesion for those of us who don't want a socialist form of government, don't they? Not a chance in hell. If one state tried to cesseed from this socialist union, this government would butcher anyone who tried. Go ahead libertaian tv, tell us why this nation is the greatest nation on earth as this government continues to butcher innocent people all over the world. While they continue to enslave you behind the protections of their socialist patriot act. Choose your words carefully because I will respond to what you say. This government continues to use our soldiers to force other sovereign nations into submission and that makes this country a hell of a lot less than something great.

Libertarian tv. Just because josh states his opinion is no reason for you to accuse him of being predjudice. His opinion may be different than yours but he is probably no more predjudice than you are naive on many issues. You seem to have a habit of labelling people that you dissagree with.

IN REGARDS to what I said. I will also state their are other countries that also butcher people. THEIR OWN PEOPLE SADDAM being one of the them. AS HISTORY recalls, the names not off the top of my head, but another BUTCHER a while back in AFRICA. America is not the only country that has faults. If I could run somewhere to have peace I would. THERE IS NO WHERE TO RUN. MONEY TALKS BS WALKS. In the man is ruled by G-d or MONEY. In my opinion unless we have a strong change. IT WILL TAKE AN ACT OF G-D to come down and do something, and believe me that is what I am praying for. Because I think this is beyond man capability to do what is right.

Libertarian TV,
I agree with mike because all of us including you need to respect other people's opinion without insulting other people and calling them predujice like you did to other people on this blog. We are Libertarians we may have a disagreement on certain issue. Reguardless If your are a member Anchro-Capitalist faction of the LP or a member of The Libertarian Reform Caucus like me. We are libertarians united on bring smaller government and restore civil liberteries and indivdual lifestyles free from government intrusion and a free market economy that Reganomics could not accomplish.

Posted by: at July 30, 2005 07:49 PM
When has the US government shoveled Mexicans across the border back into Mexico. The other stuff you said are true about the US government's activities. I have never heard in my life the US deporting Mexicans back to Mexico. It is the complete opposite The US government has a unsupervised border with Mexico. The Border Patrol is so sparse that any terrorist destroy our cities or any diseased person can come in from Mexico spread the disease like small pox across US states. I have heard reports in areas where border patrol are present they found middle eastern people crossing into the US illegally. a terrorist group probably knows where our country's weak spot is. The US-Mexican Border is free to anyone right now to come into this country and will continue to be under the CAFTA trade agreement.

I guess you have never heard of the mexican-american war. There were mexicans in the southwest long before we came in and took it from them and forced them back into present day mexico. They were here and we pushed them out. They were not deported, they either fled or were killed.

Libetarian tv We had the best country on earth a hundred and fifty years ago. Whole families were welcome to homestead a nice piece of land to build their homes and raise their children. They could raise chickens, cows, horses, goats and grow a garden as big as they wanted. They could come and go as they pleased. There was no income tax. There was no gas tax. There was no property tax. There was no inheritance tax. There was no road tax. No cigarette tax. No food tax. No patriot act. No draft. People were headed for personal independence. We didn't have vietnam. We didn't have war with iraq, iran or north korea. Times were hard but your successes were your own. We had extremely limited government. The government was of the people, by the people and for the people. A mans home was his castle. Yes sir libertrian tv, WE HAD the greatest country on earth but the two party system found a way to take that all away from us. They decided that america belonged to the wealthy instead belonging to americans. THey thought that americans would be so much happier being trapped in larged cities, in dead end jobs, hoping that uncle sam would be there with a welfare check if things got desperate. Yes sir, what a wonderful (oops, I mean great) country we used to have. Wait till we go to war with iran and the patriot act begins to smother you with government control. Maybe we can get together and ask the democrats and republicrats to please see the error of their ways. Who knows, they just might. Maybe we should try holding our breath and see what happens.

Oh yes,I forgot to put my name in above.Freedom. It must have been great in the days of the pioneers.

Don't know if it were great in the pioneer days. Women didn't have a lot of rights. It is to bad we couldn't have some of the ideas from the old days and intergrate it into today. But the idea of a nice home with peace and chickens a family.
Today christmas is about advertising for bargins and what the children are going to get. gimmi gimmi. What happenend to the get together of family life, the warmth the friendly people.
Most have become extinct. It about money, gimmi and mine. Power and whats in it for me. I tell you, in the end everyone is going to lose, if things don't change.

I have been accused by two people of unjustly criticizing anger-based, highly prejudicial statements, particularly prejudice that condemns people for having a particular religion. That's similar to saying that it's good and pro-libertarian to express racial prejudice. You may believe that, but I don't. Futher, I don't think that most libertarians think it's okay to do that. Let me clarify: I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to express his opinion. I'm saying that he isn't right to make such awful comments in support of libertarianism. I don't think expressions of religious prejudice do one, single, positive thing to promote libertarianism. However, religious prejudice clearly alienates potential libertarian supporters.

As for Mike's complaint about the US being the greatest country on earth...I don't think that the US is a great country. I think it's the greatest by comparison. It's not that the U.S. is particularly good. It's that the others are particularly bad. I don't think that democracy is good either, but I have to agree that it's the best form of government, because the other forms are even worse.

If you believe that I think the U.S. is a great country, you are reading into what I said something that isn't actually in my comments. Saying that it's the greatest of a bad lot is not the same thing as saying it's great.

Somone pointed out that I have a tendency to label people who post damaging comments like that. It's true. However, I also think it's good to criticize such stuff. Just because we believe in the right to free speech doesn't mean we have to tacitly approve any evil things that are said without criticizing them.

I REALLY THINK WE NEED to focus on how and what are we going to put in ACTION for the 2006 and 2008 election. We are limited in time here.

Libertarian tv wrote:.I don't think that the US is a great country. I think it's the greatest by comparison. It's not that the U.S. is particularly good. (It's that the others are particularly bad).....Are you saying that the others are particularly bad meaning belgium, iceland, nova scotia, greenland, belize, new zealand, austrailia? How broad is that paint brush that you are using to paint all the other countries as being particularly bad? Can you name any good countries outside of the U.S? I can name a couple who mind their own business and don't butcher human beings from sovereign nations. I can name a couple of nations who dont use their laws to suppress and enslave their citizens like the united states government does. I'm enjoying the open debate mr. libertarian tv.

For freedom wrote:But the idea of a nice home with peace and chickens a family.......Well sir you seem to have a good heart but you must admit that family farms and raising chickens is certainly more peaceful than being forced to live in major cities, supporting government tax payer funded wars. Supporting thousands of troops stationed in sovereign nations all over the world, and being forced to pay for the unbelievable corruption of this government and our allies. We are funding the terrorist state of israel, china, pakistan. We used to support the terrorist shah of iran....I think small farms and close families would have been much better than the sewer we live in today.

You know it really interesting, isreal the jewish people deserve to have their own state as no one else on this planet wants them. And people wonder why some have the attitude they do.
As far as funding, you know the very holy ground the people are fighting on, the energy should be spent on more time on finding the history and answers regarding G-d. But instead we have wars all over the place and greed.

(It's that the others are particularly bad).......Talk about predjudial. That statement is definitely a statement of predjudice. When a man is allowed to talk long enough in an open debate forum such as this, We all tend to say things that sound predjudicial. Wouldn't you agree Libertarian tv?

The israelis and the palestinians have been butchering each other on their holy ground for thousands of years, and it makes no difference what you try to give these people to aliviate their anger towards one another, they continue to blow each other up for the stupidest reasons. It certainly doesn't help that half the middle east is supporting the palistinians militarily and the united government is supporting the terrorist state of israel militarily. This holy ground that you speak of is full of dead civilians who have been caught in the crossfire for hundreds of years. There is absolutely nothing holy about the middle eastern graveyard being occupied by the israelis and the palestinians.

Mike,

Yes, I suppose I'm painting other countries with a broad brush. Maybe that's not totally justifiable.

On the other hand, equating a country to its government is also not justifiable. I'm an American, yet I don't butcher people. Am I a butcher because certain members of my government are butchers?

Perhaps you're painting with a broad brush as well.

I think you're also overlooking all the things that are good about our country outside of the government. Here are just a few examples off the top of my head.

1. We have a higher level of free enterprise than most places around the globe...not nearly as much as we libertarians would like, but still higher than most.

2. We have an appreciation, respect, and room for ethnic, cultural and religious diversity that no other country can match. Not all of us, but most of us have this respect. America is still the world's melting pot.

3. Our population is mostly made up of good, decent people who try to do what's right and respect their neighbors.

4. We are an extremely hard-working and industrious people.

5. We have some of the most beautiful natural resources in the world.

6. Our potential is limited only by our government's tyranny.

I'm sure you could add to the above list. America isn't just our government. It's a country outside of the government, too, and all of that has to be factored into any analysis in order to be complete.

So perhaps I was being too harsh when I painted all the world's countries as at least equally bad. But perhaps you painted with too broad a brush when you described America as one of the worst.

Well mr. libertarian tv. The qualities that you talk about can be used to describe many countries throughout the world. We may have some very good qualities as a whole but so does many other countries. BUTT, There are many other countries who do not use there military and political might to butcher other human beings in an attempt to control the inner workings of those countries governments. We have some very good qualities that are damn well being overshadowed by the fact that our government is destroying our freedoms at an extremely accellerated pace as well as the freedoms of other sovereign nations. This government is certainly not doing all this destruction by itself. It takes many, many men and women to support this government in order for them to pull off this huge amount of socialism, and yes , I am speaking of the good hearted americans who are following this governments lead and helping them to oppress peoples rights. Yes we do have some good qualities, but so does a man who donates half his paycheck to the poor on sunday, and then commits murder on monday. The point being that as a whole, this country is no better than many countries on earth, and is far worse than others. Many countries have vast amounts of freedom and a much simpler way of life, but they don't butcher human beings for personal gain.And yes I am looking at our government with great dis-dain because our government is our spokes person whether we agree with them or not. They also show the rest of the world a reflection of america. If you or anybody else wants to have the greatest country in the world, then you need to walk away from this government when they murder people, commit human attrocities and destroy human rights. You need to take a firm stand and CONDEMN these butchering cowards as I have done, and you need to condemn anyone who follows these people, just as you would have condemned natzi germany. Even if it means turning your back on your own country. And I will also say this. We have shown appreciation, respect, and room for ethnic, cultural and religious diversity as you say, but we have shown dis-respect as well and thats why iraquis are being butchered by our respectful government.We treat one group of people with great respect and then we piss on the next group and butcher their people.Thats also why we our government supports israel and turns its back on the palestinians.Our government takes sides and chooses which terrorist organization to support. You need to remember that it takes soldiers to carry out this genocide that we see in iraq. Lets call it like it is mr. libertarian tv. Too hell with peoples feelings. Theres a war going on here and while we argue about who has the best country on earth.....The best country on earth is slautering human beings in a sovereign nation....A nation that we attacked without cause. This government of ours is slaughtering human life and destroying families and that makes our country a pathetic place to live. My tax dollars are killing human beings. . 90 % of all americans are democrats and republicrats and the government who is destroying our country is mostly democrat and republicrat. Our corrupt supreme court is democrat and republicrat. GET THE POINT. I dont care if I piss off a few liberals or a few republicrats. I care that these people are destroying human life. If it hurts there feelings....Big deal....Maybe they should take some time out of their busy schedule and take a hard look at the corpses that litter the streets in some of our war zones.The democrats and republicrats as a whole will never become libertarian, they are much too self centered to believe in true freedom. Of course some will change but the majority will not. They do whats best for themselves and the hell with personal freedom. And what good is all of our beautiful natural resources when everything that we claim to be ours was taken by causing the injury and death of others.

Libertarian tv wrote: Somone pointed out that I have a tendency to label people who post damaging comments like that. It's true. (However, I also think it's good to criticize such stuff. Just because we believe in the right to free speech doesn't mean we have to (tacitly approve any evil things) that are said without criticizing them)......
.................Very well put libertarian tv. That is exactly what I am trying to do when I call attention to the atrocities of our socialist government. I don't approve of this government and I don't approve of good hearted americans supporting such a disgusting bunch of cowardly thugs. The U.S governement is a terrorist regime and better than 90% of americans voted for this regime.....Not once, but twice.....Lets see if they vote any different in 2008.....Don't hold yer breath.....Jeb bush may be your next president with condoleeza rice may be your vice president.......Look out IRAN. If one bush don't get you, the next one will.

Libertarian TV,
The issue of prejudice is used out of it's text these days. Political Correctness is the main reason that it is being used out of text. When someone disagrees with you about going to a mosque to give solidarity does not mean they hate muslims. it is political correctness and affirmitive action don't unite races and ethnic groups. Political Correctness and Affirmitive Action is reverse descrimination. These ideas are coercision to force a certian race of people to obey other races like the other races are superior to everybody else. Equality is not Jim Crow laws of segregation which the southern Democrats imposed on blacks in the south in 1877 nor is it equality to have laws like affirmitive action were compaines have to have more black employees than white employees. segregation or reverse descrimination are tactics of coercision. They both should be condemned.

Posted by: at August 1, 2005 07:29 PM

I agree with what your saying about the Bush Administration that had no real cause to go to war against Iraq. I think Bush wanted personal revenge against Saddam Huessin, because Huessin tried to have his father George H.W.Bush killed and by George W. Bush getting personal revenge and fabricating intellgence documents is still no excuse to send troops to Iraq. because of that over 1,700 US soliders are dead and thousand of Iraqis are dead. I probably bet in the background George H.W.Bush was behind the War in Iraq. I think in 2008 people in mainstream america are that ignorant to elect either Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton. voting for either of those candidates is a disgrace. If I voted for any of those candidates It would ruin my duty to vote for candidates that would keep to their oath to uphold the Constitution. Jeb Bush nor Hillary Clinton would uphold the Constitution. George W. Bush never upheld his oath to the constitution so don't expect Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush to uphold the constitution either.

The government may be watching, Shane:

As I recall Sir, when in public, there is no expection of privacy. So are you suggesting that during a protest demonstration, anyone from the government shouldn't watch?

Considering the behaviour of some WTO protestors one shouldn't be supprised at a show of force or observers on the sidelines. Afraid? Gee! That sounds like the police may be operating without orders from the officials elected by the people. Better direct your apprehension toward them!

The Libertarian Reformer:

The suggestion that two military invasions were initiated for some petty personal reason shows a profound disrespect voters that elected President Bush to lead this country and does not credit the author with the ability to grasp some rather complicated issues. So lets look at a bigger picture.

(1) A mortal enemy lives in and is funded by people that share an ideology incompatiable with the western world.

(2) They reject peaceful coexistance and believe their God wants them to convert the world to their way of worshiping.

(3) Defeating that ideology is necessary for survival.

Beliving the above, President Bush invaded two countries to do two things. Replace the government that provided a haven (direct response) and another to inject democracy into the middle east (indirect response) both because of the 9/11 attacks. Simpily put - "Kill the alligators we can find and dry up the swamp where they breed!"

You may not agree with the decisions but they were made and the invasions are now history. Maybe it would be better to deal with whom you want to replace the present adminstration and what you want them to do.

If you will just think in larger terms, you will get closer to understanding the foreign policy that replaced the 60 year old one the allowed that ideology to grow into todays problum.

Agree or disagree - What ever floats you boat!

Well mr. stockman, your argument doesn't hold water. First of all the talaban would not have been a problem if the united states government had not given military support to this terrorist regime when they were at war with the soviets. The iraqui government of saddamn hussein would not have been a problem if the united states government had not supported his regime with weapons of mass destruction back in 1980 when he was stupid enough to attack the sovereign nation of iran with weapons of mass destruction. Our government supported terrorism back then and americans are dying because of it. If the truth be known, saddamn would have been butchered by iran and his head would have been served to the cameras on a plate if the U.S government had not stuck their noses into their business and supported saddamns terrorism by giving him weapons to attack his neighbors with. It all comes back to the same old problem. The U.S government creates terrorism and then pats itself on the back for trying to be the hero. The really big problem is that people like you continue to buy into their BS and as long as you do, terrorism will never stop because bush and blair don't want it too. They need endless wars and yer just the kind of guy they need to fight them. Someone who can't see past the BS. The only respect george bush needs to be shown is the inside of an iraqui prison and a trial in an iraqui court room.

stockman says. 1) A mortal enemy lives in and is funded by people that share an ideology incompatiable with the western world.

(2) They reject peaceful coexistance and believe their God wants them to convert the world to their way of worshiping.

(3) Defeating that ideology is necessary for survival.
What the hell did he just say. We attacked them stockman. I think we are the mortal enemies who cant seem to live in peace. We have endless wars with no accountability to anyone. if bush don't like you, his military will kill you. Does that sound like peace to you?

If anyone wants to see what the U.S patriot act is doing to our constitutional rights you need to read this website. http://www.sierratimes.com/05/07/27/24_209_102_203_27308.htm
The implications are tremendous and the libertarian party may be running out of time to make any real changes in american politics. Take just a couple minutes of your time to read this and you may be surprised to see just how much damage this patriot act is doing to your personal freedom.

Stockman,
Your arguement is based on Bush speeches. In the 1980's then Vice President George H.W.Bush,SR and Donald Rumsfield meet Saddam Huessin several times as allies. The US in return gave millions of dollars in supply to Saddam Huessin to use against Iran. The voters discredited themselves and they are now realizing it. CNN/Gallup polls are showning only 38% of Americans surveyed still support the war in iraq while the other 62% of Americans surveyed support withdraw from Iraq. Other polls have people saying we should not have been in Iraq. George W. Bush and the fraud that is the Republican Party seems to lose support from Americans and they will never regain my support ever again. You have to see through the lies of both Democrats and Republicans to see the real truth.

Posted by: at August 5, 2005 10:46 AM,
Those executive orders sound like doctorines of Adolf Hitler and Joesph Stalin, Pol Pot and Benito Moussilini. Why is our government that screwed up?. History is starting to prove it's self once again. The Roman Empire use to distract the general crowd with gladiators spectaacles meanwhile the Roman Governement became too corrupt and invaded other countries and they did not have border control either, then the government turned on it's people and barbarians swept into Rome from northern europe through areas that were not supervised and destroyed the roman empire. The similarities are enormous between the US and Roman Empire