The official blog of the Libertarian Party
August 03, 2005
Permanent Vacation?
We just released a press release regarding George W. Bush's lack of leadership in his willingness to go on a five-week vacation as our troops continue to fight and die in Iraq. Here's an excerpt:
On Wednesday, 14 Marines deployed to Iraq from Ohio were killed when their armored vehicle hit a roadside bomb. The attack is one of the deadliest attacks to take place in Iraq. Days earlier, six Marines from the same unit were killed in a fire-fight near Haditha.
Meanwhile, Republican President George W. Bush set out yesterday to begin his five-week vacation in Crawford, Texas. The planned vacation will be the longest presidential getaway in 36 years (Richard Nixon spent over a month at his San Clemente estate in 1969).
While Bush's aides and enablers defend the president's aggressive vacationing, it is simply poor leadership on the part of the Commander in Chief. While American soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen are disallowed from simply returning to the United States as scheduled and risks their lives in Iraq each day, the President of the United States enjoys the comfort and pleasures of his Crawford ranch.
Working vacation or not, President Bush's appearance of a leisurely lifestyle does not mesh with the leadership qualities of a "wartime president."
Posted by Shane Cory at August 3, 2005 02:28 PM
Reader Comments:
Sounds like the perfect time for a coup to me. (just kidding FBI)
Let's not forget Clinton's worldwide adventures. He just managed to disguise personal trips as political ones.
Did Kennedy or Dick Turbin write this joke of a press release?
First, tell us the doom and gloom. List the number of American volunteer soldiers that were killed.
Second, blame it on the president. Perhaps if the president were in D.C. those volunteers wouldn't have been murdered by a random roadside bomb. What a hoax.
Third, compare the current prez to a crook or tyrant. Why not compare him to Hitler or Stalin? Perhaps Pol Pot? Wouldn't that make Bush even more evil than this PR is trying to protray him?
Forth, don't explain how his leadership is "poor," just jump to the conclusion.
Soldiers aren't allowed to return home... right... as if they didn't know when they volunteered that the US military machine is constantly fighting around the world. Certainly a team of soldiers would work better when random members of the team leave.
Look, I'm not saying the prez is doing a good thing by vacationing for more time than any average US taxpayer could ever hope for, just that vacation time is a perk of his job. Being in D.C. wouldn't change a thing and the writer (John Kerry?) knows this.
...as if the president cannot be reached because he is on vacation.... what a joke.
By the way, I'm not agreeing with Bush's vacactioning. Maybe we should send him to a fancy hotel in Baghdad.
Unfortunately, volunteering to join the army means you're at the mercy of the decisions by the Commander -in- Chief. For some, the benefits the army provides (taxpayer money) is enough to entice them to volunteer.
You take the good, you take the bad...
I would rather Bush be on paid vacation his entire life than spend another second in washington signing anything in front of him and acting like a buffoon. This guy has established himself as the dumbest president in U.S. history, we need to keep him away from the white house.
Congress is on vacation, so why can't I?
Ok, this article is stupid and pointless. The President is NEVER on vacation. He is simply in a different location. The POTUS is on call 24/7 and if he's spending time in Martha's vineyard, a Texas Ranch, Camp David, or anywhere else he is still working.
You think because the POTUS is in a different place they shut down the West Wing?
The vacation isn't the issue. The issue is that these and other soldiers, plus thousands of innocent Iraqis, wouldn't be dead but for the War Crimes committed by Bush and his evil gang: unprovoked, aggressive warfare. Yes, the same crime for which we hung Nazis at Nuremberg. Certainly this is a high crime meriting impeachment.
Why aren't we talking about this, rather than small, peripheral issues?
The level of sheer anti-Bush rhetoric lately is seriously forcing me to reconsider my LP membership. Is this party still about personal property, limited gov't, etc., or is it's new focus to bash Bush and pull troops out of Iraq early? Let the current administration do its job - and clearly state the LP position as we will enacte it when the time comes! Right now, the LP is in NO POSITION to dictate national policy.
Other posters on this page are correct. The Prez is never on vacation and I believe he is doing what he feels is correct. Face it, he is in the hotseat for another few years. Random rants on a webpage will not help the LP or its cause(s).
Let's work with the situation as it exists now to limit the damage, and when we get our shot, let's hope others won't bash our nut-job pot smoking minority instead helping us of work on limiting government.
George W. Bush is on his first major vacation since before 9/11 meanwhile 14 marines got killed by insurgents and the death toll is now 1,822. The death toll in Iraq will be higher tommorow because US soliders get killed every single day. I do not consider the US wining the War in Iraq. We are losing the War in Iraq. The sooner we withdraw the better. The War in Iraq has a lot of similarities to Vietnam like the insurgency problem
Posted by: Brad Graves at August 3, 2005 04:41 PM
I disagree with your statement entirely. People in the LP have the right to have disagree with the President. I think the approach of sucking up to Bush is not helpful to our reputation either. The Bush administration is a fraud and invades countries and kills people for no real reason at all. Bill Clinton was almost impeached for being an adulter, but Bush can get away with invasion and mass murder in Iraq. Iraq was never a threat to the US nor was it ever going to be.
I see no problem with our philosophical stance on the Iraq war, but it's not constructive to outright call the prez a lazy SOB via press release.
That's just pushing the coulda-been libertarian-voting Repubs farther right and away from our party, and its ideas.
Leave it to the Moores and Streisands to do the whining. Trust me, the Dems complain and alienate voters enough that the LP can allow itself to focus on more important issues, like eminent domain and outrageous taxes.
This is a stupid press release and a cheap shot! We have better points to make to criticize Bush and call for an end to the Iraq occupation. We don't have to sound like Democrats.
I certainly didn't want to give the impression that we cannot disagree - that is what I love most about the LP. And please don't think I want the party to 'suck up' to the current administration. I just thought that a cooperative relationship would be sooner realized when we (LP) didn't appear so bluntly confrontational. When that happens, I hoped our message would stick and we could influence others at a national level and be recognized as a true partner in national level politics. Just a thought. Let me know if I am way off here.
To Shane:
You know you're doing a good job when so many Republicans have to jump over here and defend Bush.
This LP press release about our "President", which is based on factual evidence, is crucially needed in a time where we as Americans have the memory of "goldfish" - we get angry, but then we forget the atrocities that take place in our nations government... a nation that has forgotten the Declaration of our Indpendance. Abraham Lincoln stated best when he said "He feared for the future of our great nation, for the wealth and power will be divided among a few hands." Something has to be done, but unfortunately until we as Americans really feel the pressure we will continue to be completely oblivious to the issues that plague our society... defunct government, high taxes, horrendous public education system, and the loss of LIFE, LIBERTY & our FREEDOMS.
"It doesn't make much difference who is President. What is important is the attitude of the American people." - R.C. Hoiles.
This is a silly thing to get worked up over, but, in contrast to another poster here, cannot just stand by and "let this administration do its job." It is this administration's lying, misrepresenting fault that we are in this war, and it wouldn't be its "job" if it would have listened to reason before goinging into war.
I am proud to say that I recieved my LP membership card just a few days ago.
Several previous posters have claimed that President Bush is not their president. Well, I'm afraid to say that if you are a US citizen then he is your president and I hope you can learn to deal with it for a few more years. I do not agree with many things President Bush has done, but I also do not agree with everything that the "Libertarians" in these chat rooms suggest. Slinging mud at the current administration does nothing for our party but make us look like Democrats, and this press release does just that. I realize that our party is trying to convert some current Democrats, but we should do so by setting examples. The War in Iraq is slowly coming to an end, and if we are fortunate enough to claim the White House in '08 we can see to it that our international obtrusions are resolved. Until then, we should stop critisizing and calming explain what we whould to to make the situation better.
As I said before on another thread, the mudslinging and ad hominems should be beneath the dignity of this party. People are turned off from politics by the constant ad hominems. They do not help the L.P. one bit.
President Bush is in Texas. So what. If he is on Air Force One, in Europe, Japan, Iraq, etc, ad naseum, he is just as damn much in control as if he were sitting in the oval office. He has "The Button" with him at all times and all the rest of the fancy gadgets. Congress is on break for an even longer period and they are the ones that have no excuse. The President can function anywhere but Congress can only function when it is actually sitting at the seat of government. The appropriations bills have not been done and as usual will likely not be done before the beginning of the new year. Oh, and how about the Supreme Court, they get a nice long vacation from the end of June all the way through to October 1st. Having one quarter of the year off must be damn nice. Hopefully I have made my point. Once you start on the ad hominem path, it can be followed to the point where it points to damn near anybody.
Please, lets stay above the ad hominems, above the level of the two main parties and stick to discussing valid issues and ideas.
The LP is correct to criticize the Bush administration's war in Iraq. Things like the Iraq Exit Strategy are what HQ should be doing, in my opinion.
However, I must agree with many posters on this thread that criticizing President Bush for going on vacation seems silly, at best. This is the exact same thing that Michael Moore said in Fahrenheit 9/11, a movie that sure didn't help the Democrats in '04.
Can't we focus on more important issues like CAFTA, the Patriot Act, eminent domain, and medical marijuana? What ever happened to those?
An off topic note: U.S. District Judge John C. Coughenour today sentenced Ahmed Ressam, the man convicted of attempting to blow up Los Angeles International Airport on January 1, 2000 to 22 years in prison. From his sentencing comments:
"Okay. Let me say a few things. First of all, it will come as no surprise to anybody that this sentencing is one that I have struggled with a great deal, more than any other sentencing that I've had in the 24 years I've been on the bench.
"I've done my very best to arrive at a period of confinement that appropriately recognizes the severity of the intended offense, but also recognizes the practicalities of the parties' positions before trial and the cooperation of Mr. Ressam, even though it did terminate prematurely.
"The message I would hope to convey in today's sentencing is twofold:
"First, that we have the resolve in this country to deal with the subject of terrorism and people who engage in it should be prepared to sacrifice a major portion of their life in confinement.
"Secondly, though, I would like to convey the message that our system works. We did not need to use a secret military tribunal, or detain the defendant indefinitely as an enemy combatant, or deny him the right to counsel, or invoke any proceedings beyond those guaranteed by or contrary to the United States Constitution.
"I would suggest that the message to the world from today's sentencing is that our courts have not abandoned our commitment to the ideals that set our nation apart. We can deal with the threats to our national security without denying the accused fundamental constitutional protections.
"Despite the fact that Mr. Ressam is not an American citizen and despite the fact that he entered this country intent upon killing American citizens, he received an effective, vigorous defense, and the opportunity to have his guilt or innocence determined by a jury of 12 ordinary citizens.
"Most importantly, all of this occurred in the sunlight of a public trial. There were no secret proceedings, no indefinite detention, no denial of counsel.
"The tragedy of September 11th shook our sense of security and made us realize that we, too, are vulnerable to acts of terrorism.
"Unfortunately, some believe that this threat renders our Constitution obsolete. This is a Constitution for which men and women have died and continue to die and which has made us a model among nations. If that view is allowed to prevail, the terrorists will have won
"It is my sworn duty, and as long as there is breath in my body I'll perform it, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. We will be in recess."
http://floricane.typepad.com/
Bravo, Judge. This is the way terrorism should be fought.
The reason why I joined the LP because i oppose the War in Iraq and believe George W. Bush has failed as a president. I guess those ex-republicans are more loyal to Bush, then they are to the Libertarian Party. The logical thing is a pro-war person does not come to a non-interventionist party and demand that party should be pro-war. I welcome all former republicans to our party, but they have to realize there will be opposition to the war in iraq and interventionism in this party. Why should the LP have to forefit their views on war and interventionism because some Bush loyalists are complaining.
Bush has been vacationing on Iraq, mentally and otherwise, since 2001.Every village needs an idiot,but Washington has the market cornered.
You know we really need to work on issues and if we don't band together and start to put in action the domestic issues which is closer within our reach, we are not going to be anywhere except in the channel as we are now.
Forget about insults to that person and this person. Lets focus on, Ok what can we do to get certain people elected, what can we do to change the taxes and how can we work together. If we don't do something and put it to work. You WILL NOT GET THE MEMBERS to become more in the LP party. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU.
I certainly oppose the war in Iraq. It should never have been started in the first place and if I was sworn into the office of the President, my first act would be to sign an order to the military withdrawing all American presence at the fastest possible rate, probably would take seven to ten days to completely clear the country of American military presence, including military and paramilitary contractors, plus all the looters from Halliburton, etc. Halliburton could later reenter the country, but only at the invitation of Iraq and solely under Iraq's terms.
However, at the same time, I will continue to oppose the ad hominem attacks. Opposing ad hominem attacks is NOT a defense of Bush or of the war. It is merely an exortation that this party should take the political high road. Let's not sink in the same slime pool as other parties. Otherwise, voters will get disgusted and just tune out the L.P. like they have tuned out the major parties.
Ok, for those of you who don't seem to be able to get it. I oppose the WAR and ad hominem attacks. Don't know how I can make it any clearer.
Permanent vacation? All you have to do is pray.
22 years for terrorism? Am I wrong, or is terrorism a multiple homicide?
Walt,
Thanks for that post. Thank God we still have judges that understand. Now if we could just get him on the Supreme Court instead of the Bush Lackey....
Mark well hey, you not in congress, let alone the President, and furthermore not even a mayor.
There a reason for that, most of the american people disagree with you on foreign policies. Since you disagree with my position, I encourage you to keep shouting your belief as loud as you can, that way you will never get elected.
I am not running for office, nor do I intend to do so. I can dig up recent and relevant polls that prove a slight majority of the American Public DOES agree with my position.
However, it is the L.P. and its candidates that are trying to gain office, not me, so discussions of my qualifications for office are irrelevant.
The first year or so of the war, most people were for it. Now that they know they were either duped or just given false info accidentally (either is a possibility, so don't attack me, people are opposed to the war. If we were merely acting on incorrect info, it's still the administration's fault for not waiting and looking into matter more thoroughly. Remember, most americans, and pretty much all Dems, wanted to wait for more intelligence. Only the truely scared-by-the-media-and-government americans wanted to rush into war.
Yuck.
I can think of a few good words that LP members could write to that "editor". What I would check for is who owns that paper and how much did they contribute to G. Bush's campaign?
Carl Vasser wrotes:
"The issue is that these and other soldiers, plus thousands of innocent Iraqis, wouldn't be dead but for the War Crimes committed by Bush and his evil gang: unprovoked, aggressive warfare. Yes, the same crime for which we hung Nazis at Nuremberg. Certainly this is a high crime meriting impeachment.
Why aren't we talking about this, rather than small, peripheral issues?"
Good question, Carl.
I suspect the reason is because LP leadership is afraid of upsetting the disgruntled Republican faction of the LP. To some, any criticism of Bush makes the LP look like Democrats, and we all know that Democrats are evil and Republicans are good - just ask any talk radio conservative.
Some in the LP feel we have to pander to Republicans in order to be taken seriously. Despite the fact that many from the old right have been Bush's harshest critics, many libertarians are reluctant to criticize Bush - much less call for his impeachment.
So, while it was perfectly acceptable to support the impeachment of Clinton with no fear of looking like Republicans, we shouldn't call for the impeachment of Bush because it might offend those libertarians like Neal Boortz who supported and voted for Bush.
Personally, I would love to see the LP initiate a petition for the impeachment of Bush. This might even get more than the 52 signatures per day that the the Iraq Exit Strategy has gotten and I don't think it would contradict the LP platform to demand accountability.
The Case for Impeachment:
http://www.pnar.org/bushout.htm
Many New Hampshire towns protest taxes
By Carl Burnett
Aug 14, 2001 4:12 PM
HANOVER, N.H. -- The New Hampshire seacoast is ground zero for a citizen-led revolt against a new statewide property-tax law.
Tobey, meanwhile, remains adamant. She is unsure what would happen to Rye and Newington if they did secede, but she said they are considering a range of possibilities, from becoming an INDEPENDENCE U.S. possession to becoming part of another state such as Alaska.
"I'm not a born loser," she said. "If I can help it, we can make a change."
(C) 2001 The Dartmouth via U-WIRE
IF YOU WANT TO READ MORE HERE IS THE LINK
http://www.scholarsite.com/noticias/3b798616.21d7.191.htm
Here is the link to a very good article which is hard to argue with. I only posted a sample of the article, connect to the link to read more.
http://www.mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/proptax.htm
Let me ask you - who owns the land? Because we live in a statist nation, most people believe the land belongs to the state and any use that we get of the land is a privilege granted to us by the State, (and we should be thankful for it; for whatever we get). But the Bible no where declares that the land belongs to the State, rather, the Scriptures declare that the land belongs to God!
Land, in God’s economy, was meant to be an inheritance to future generations of family members. Dt. 19:14 and Lev. 25 make this abundantly clear. A tax on the land is an attempt by the state to defund, dispossess, and disinherit the family. Families that cannot afford the tax will lose their land! Supreme Court Chief justice John Marshall, penned these words in the 1819 McCulloch v. Maryland case, "The power to tax is the power to destroy." A property tax is an attempt by the State to destroy the family!
#3. The property tax is an unbiblical, evil tax because the Bible teaches that property tax is an assault upon man’s freedom.
"True American" - I don't know where you've been living recently, but all polls state that a majority of the American population is now against the war in Iraq.
Tom Blanton - You're correct when you say that many of the President's biggest critics are from the Old Right, such as Pat Buchanan. These people are known as paleoconservatives. In other words, they are the only true conservatives in existence here in the United States. The others who say they are conservatives are merely passing themselves off as such.
By the way, I don't think the President is stupid because you have to be intelligent in order to deceive an entire nation into supporting a war against a nation that wasn't a threat to us.
We can bitch about the war all we want and it won't change a thing. The way I see it, Bush went after Saddam out of sheer hatred of the man stemming from his father's experiences with him. He hates Saddam more than he hates Osama and apparently that didn't bother 51% of the American people last November.
If only the President and Congress would work 5 weeks a year, and vacation the other 47, this nation might be free again.
Do you believe everything you read, the media always puts up a good story, what is true anymore, and then change the story to different senerio later. The polls says one thing about Hillary, and the next well she might be our new President. She is a very strong liberal. The same with the drugs they put out. This drug is ok, then next story it makes you sick. Oh now they find its ok again. I hope your not that neive.
TO THE LEADERS OF OUR PARTY: NO MORE MUD-SLINGING. It is everyone's duty and right to criticize the president's policies and his actions. However, a personal attack against him makes us look a bunch of Michael Moore's. If that's the image that the majority of our party wants to project, then I'm out.
This type of press release enters us into the same pissing contest that's been going on between the republicrats since the beginning of time. I thought this party was above that crap but apparently not. ATTACK THE POLICIES AND THE ACTIONS, BUT DON'T ATTACK THE PERSON.
Bush is on a vacation, so what. Even if you think he's the worst president this country has ever had, being the leader of the free world might be a little stressful don't you think? Perhaps a little vacation might clear up his thinking.
No matter how much some of you hate it, Bush is going to be our president until the end of 2008. LIVE WITH IT. Wasting our energy by attacking him makes us look like children calling each other names. Lets divert that energy into getting members and votes.
What is interesting and not surprising is while I notice more news that the States/Cities wants to tighten the eminent domain situation. Where is Bush in all this as well? And while the bombing in England is happening, where is Prince Charles? I don't see much news media from Prince Charles either. Are they doing something that the media forgot to deliver to us the people or delibrately not reporting. Or the President and Prince Charles displaying a lack of leadership.
ADAM THAT's what I been trying to say as well.
I consider myself a Libertarian, but hearing remarks like this from the national party representatives might make me reconsider. There's lots of things to criticize the President about, but being in Crawford during August isn't one of them. Congress isn't in session and with modern communications, the President could run the country from Antartica if he needed to.
Shane,
Surely you aren't serious! While agenda driven elite media seem obligated to write their annual articles making stupid and/or cute remarks when Presidents leaving the White House, we remember this is August, not much is going on in Washington D.C., and reporters must fill the empty space so they can be forgiven if being petty.
Many of us live in a competative business environment with responsibilities that respect nither clock nor calender and understand that the U.S. President is never off the clock no matter where he is.
Because the political appratus that promoted him in last election was not the LP, dosn't mean his policies are wrong and leadership weak. We share a great deal in the ideological spectrum.
Off topic: Check out this article in the Los Angeles Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-maribel4aug04,1,2043152.story?coll=la-headlines-california
In particular, I want to point out the following paragraphs from the article:
"Maribel's troubles began April 29. The girl was playing with her younger brother and other friends in the gated front yard of a neighbor's home when a group of boys, including Elijah, approached.
"Maribel said Elijah called her names ďż˝ as he had done in the past ďż˝ and threw water balloons at her, striking Maribel in the head. The group also threw rocks, she said.
"After the boys refused to leave, the girl said she picked up a rock that had been thrown at her and threw it back from about 25 to 30 feet away. The rock struck Elijah just above the left eye, drawing blood.
"The girl said police officers later grabbed her by the back of her shirt, threw her to the ground, placed a knee in her back and handcuffed her.
"The officers' version of the incident differs greatly. Police officers said that no other boys were involved in the confrontation and that Elijah threw only one water balloon."
Now obviously there is a large difference between 11-year-old Maribel's story and the police's story. Juvenile Court placed her on six months' probation. But I have a question.
Let's assume that the police's story is correct. Why wasn't Elijah charged with felony assault as well, perhaps at a lower degree, since he threw a water balloon and not a rock? After all, he initiated force in the incident, not Maribel. Maribel was exercising her right to self-defense. If her story is correct, her self-defense was more than justified. If the police's account is correct, she may have overreacted, but clearly Elijah bears some responsibility.
What do the rest of you think?
It is obvious that the police went way too far. Just one thing though, it says on leave a comment no profanity or inappropriate comments. I thought libertarians were all about freedom for speech.
I agree with the statement about congress spending 5 weeks in Washington and vacationing the other 47.After all that's the Libertarian philosophy. Right? As to the way the press release was stated is NOT in the best interest of our party. We sound like the rest of the media and the republicrats which is continually devisive in it's approach to politcs. We need to change the approach to the game by presenting ourselves as a positive alternative, not just another negative voice. I think this party has an unprecedented opportunity to get people thinking about us as the party of true change and not just another voice in the USUAL political discussion. But we need to sound and act differently than the status quo.
Libertarians are all about freedom of speech. That simply means that the government shouldn't tell you what you can or can't say. Any business, however, has a perfect right to say what can and cannot be done on its property -- although government is trying to take away that right. (think of government smoking bans in all businesses, whether or not the business owner wants smoking to be banned there) You do have the freedom of speech -- but the LP has the ability and right to ban undesirable comments on this blog.
I am GLAD he is on vacation!! More vacation = less liberty destruction.
I hope that I'm not the only one who believes that nearly everyone in the Congress, most of the Supreme Court, and the Administration have taken the United States Constitution and are using it as a substitute to Kleenex.
Brad - We aren't Republicans and the GOP is in control. Are you suggesting that we should criticize Democrats for Republican failures? I am an equal opportunity basher - but right now, the right is more exposed as they are currently in power.
Libertarian TV, that is a perfect example of the police protecting themselves after a clear mistake. The cops should all have their paycheck for that week go directly to Maribel's parents tax free. Where I come from a child who threw a rock would never be attacked by the police, much less spend four years in juvenile hall. Criminal my @$$. It's a defenseless little girl.
ON OVERNIGHT RADIO last night:
First hour guest, Joyce Riley of the Gulf War Veterans Assoc., discussed the link between brain cancer and Gulf War Syndrome, with a new report indicating a large number of soldiers might have been exposed to the nerve agent sarin, when an Iraqi weapons cache was blown up.
Nearly 2/3 of the soldiers who fought in the first Gulf War are sick from a combination of factors, said Riley. She has produced the new documentary Beyond Treason, which is being made available free to all veterans.
Report can be read at http://gulfwarvets.com/cancer_nerveagent.htm
We have been told so many times that there were no WMD's in IRAQ. The administration even cooperates in the deception. Why? I would bet that when everything is finally sorted out, it will be admitted that Iraq really did have WMD's and that at least some of that technology was of U.S. origin, dating back to the decades old war between Iraq and Iran, when the US was supporting Saddam. In addition, there is a good chance that it will be eventually demonstrated that the use of depleted uranium tank shells by US armored brigades represents a huge hazard to both our troops and civilians in the battle zone. Both sarin and depleted uranuim are suspects in Gulf War syndrome.
Those soldiers are from the Gulf War, not the War in Iraq or Operation Iraqi Liberation or whatever it is now. That was over a decade ago. Since then, Iraq has been proven of having WMD's, which Clinton bombed and the rest have been destroyed by Saddam. All current evidence shows that Iraq hasn't had any WMD's since the Clinton Administration.
FOR FREEDOM,
I'm not getting your point? Bush government bad, all government bad, military bad and using dangerous stuff and killing its own people! Surely you don't really believe the people serving in the military and those working in government have no regard for their own lives?
I think we are all missing the point:
1. first, working vacation or not, no one in this chat that has a career job is going to argue that a "working vacation" is the same as shoing up in the office! We all know that even a "working vacation" is still time away. And if the President was so hard at work, why even bother changing locations?
2. The West Wing isn't shut down because our tax dollars pay other people to run the Wing in the President's absense.
3. With great power comes great responsibility. As Commander in Chief during a war, the last person to leave the West Wing should be the one in charge. A good leader would send his subordinates on vacation first. Then again, a good leader would not be 3000 miles from the front line!
4. What makes our party unique is the fact that it does have an open door policy when it comes to blame! Why is it always ok to take cheap shots at Clinton and Gore (and Kerry the "flip flop" for that matter) but not the republicans. Our loyalty to republican leaders should be as distant as our loyalty to the democrats. If in the process one of our own chooses to question the integrity of our Commander in Chief for taking the longest "vacation" since Nixon (another winner!), I'll stand behind him even if I disagree with his delivery.
We are libertarians--we aren't suggesting Bush is a bad president because he took a long vacation, we believe he is a bad president because he uses and abuses his powers no matter where he is located.
Yes it is from the Gulf War I, Gulf War I, Gulf War I, Gulf War I. The point was he had WMD's, we know he had weapons because he gassed our troops with them and he gassed the kurds with them. All of this occurred Circa Gulf War I. The point here is the term of the treaty that Saddam signed in ordered to save his neck from the hangmans noose, required that he accounts for the destruction of all the existing WMD stock piles. He failed to do this. That alone is sufficient justification to go to war. Failure to adhere to treaty requirements is not a precedent that we can afford to permit. By the way neather is a attempted assasination of a former president.
Do you get the big picture now?
The "big picture" you're describing was a hoax. Too bad you haven't figured that out.
YEA RIGHT, I have personal knowledge that this is not a hoax. You are soooo dead wrong.
Still a little ironic though if you ask me.
The key words, FOR FREEDOM, are "Gulf War." The soldiers of the Gulf War were gassed. After the Gulf War, Clinton bombed Saddam's stockpiles and he had no more WMD's. Since then, there has been no proof that Saddam was even seeking WMD's again, much less that he had any.
You're still not getting it. Saddam had to document that everything was destroyed. Saddam wasn't innocent until proven guilty, the treaty presumed Saddam was guilty until he proved he destroyed everything. It was not like a United State Legal proceeding so to reiterate, the burden of proof was on Saddam not on the US. That's the way the treaty was. If you don't think that's fair perhaps you would like to consider the many iraqies and kuwatis whose murders Saddam was responsible for. In my mind Saddam got off easy.
I will be the only president with the most vacations ever and I will be the only President to get away with invading countries and killing their people and our soliders without being tried for impeachment. I can only count to 10.
Posted by Shane Cory at August 3, 2005 02:28 PM,
I agree with your statement 100%. I think George W. Bush needs to be more of a true leader. We need to get out of Iraq.
FOR FREEDOM: take a look at the video "Uncovered - The Whole Truth About the Iraq War". It includes a lineup of former intelligence officials making a clear and compelling case that it was the Bush administration which distorted and misinterpreted the intelligence reports, including commentary by former weapons inspectors Scott Ritter and David Albright, former Director of CIA Stansfield Turner, former Assistance Secretary of Defense Philip Coyle, anti-terrorism expert Rand Beers, former CIA analysts Ray McGovern and Mel Goodman, former CIA operative Robert Baer, and libertarian Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski (retired) who was last posted to the CIA.
I doubt very much that you have "personal knowledge" that exceeds the knowledge these top experts have.
You can find used copies of the DVD at amazon.com for about $6 each.
I agree that the mudslinging should stop. If we are to distinguish ourselves as a true alternative to the existing Bicameral legislature, then we must act like it. President Bush and congress’ lack of fiscal responsibility, horrific foreign policies, lack of attention to individual civil liberties and the stretching of our military so thin that any true and justified utilization of our military would be neutered speak volumes. Leave the mudslinging to pseudo-journalists like Hannity, O'Riely and Franken (whose frivolous use of their 1st amendment rights I applaud).
A Libertarian Limerick
A young libertarian hope
Was in favour of medical dope.
He was moved by the pull
Of the Austrian school
And big government's slippery slope.
World Net Daily is a biased uber-conservative fundamentalist christian "news" source.
As someone who has been a small "l" libertarian (Objectivist oriented) all his adult life (since before the Libertarian Party was founded), I just want to note what an anarchist/pacifist disgrace the Party has become as to foreign policy. After 9/11, I and libertarian friends of mine found ourselves, for the first time, pleased that the Libertarian Party candidate was not president. I haven't paid much attention to the Party since, but just a quick look here tells me things have not improved; you still sound more like typical leftists than libertarians.
The complaint about Bush's vacationing echoes the "your leaders don't care" enemy propaganda we hear in every war. The stupid "Exit Strategy" states: "The so-called 'insurgents' are primarily Iraqis who have taken up arms against occupying forces in order to protect themselves and reclaim their nation."
Compare that nonsense to the assessment by Steven Vincent, the reporter who was recently kidnapped and killed in Iraq:
["}These are, after all, cold-blooded killers who propose no programs, no alternatives, no vision of a "better" Iraq. Are the Sunni paramilitaries anti-colonial "patriots?" Why, then, do they kill 20 times more Iraqi citizens than U.S. soldiers? Why don't they join with the Kurds and Shia in a national government and ask the U.S. to leave? What is the point of their bloodshed? From Tikrit to Basra, I have asked pro-fascist Sunnis these questions and have never received an adequate answer. Perhaps its time we consider that there is no answer, that the killing has no point, beyond archaic notions of tribal honor and revenge.["]
On the home front, I note another press release calling for Karl Rove's resignation, as if there had been a conviction instead of an ongoing investigation, and of course with no apparent recognition of the questions about Joe Wilson's credibility and whether his wife was in fact a "covert agent" whose identity could in any meaningul respect be "leaked." This prejudgment is not what many of us expect from a 'party of principle.'
Unless the Libertarian Party changes drastically, many of us "libertarians" won't consider it worth our attention, much less our support.
Varian: as a "libertarian" (your quotes) why do you think our military has an obligation to resolve Iraq's internal warring, and what makes you think this goal can ever be accomplished? It seems to me that you're arguing for another Vietnam...an endless war that we cannot win.
Call-in TV show made soon after 911;
includes ABC-TV Austin affiliate (KVUE)
street rally interview with
Terry Liberty Parker in first few minutes
in which the LIBERTARIAN response to 911
is briefly described
RealMedia Download/Playback at
http://images.indymedia.org/imc/austin/lll01100.rm
The bad news is that the folks in charge of "editorials" seem to be drifting toward the liberal siren song. This really is hysterically whining drivel.
The good news is that many here recognize it for what it is.
I am doubting why I joined. This party simply seems to be a democrat proxy.
I love how ignorant some people are. You all know only Democrats can hate how Bush is running things.
That was sarcasm, dipwads. Go back to the Republicans.
A long vacation produces a very visible image that a wartime President can pursue leisure activity, all the while speaking of a tireless battle against insurgents in Iraq and terrorism around the globe. Yes, it is true that the President will still be working while in Crawford, but nonetheless, the vision portrayed to the World and to the American people is not of a tireless leader, but of a CIC that places his own comforts in the forefront.
Bush places himself in a position to be criticized, not because he is not necessarily working on the ranch, but because he should in an ideal situation, should be viewed as a leader with the resolve and dedication to win the wars that our country is now fighting on multiple fronts.
Bush and his advisors have obviously weighed the media implications and did not feel troubled enough to call off the unquestionably long vacation. It does seem a bit troubling for a leader with approval ratings that are falling ever lower.
Sorry; said Goggle, meant Google
To Libertarian TV: I did not say anything like "our military has an obligation to resolve Iraq's internal warring." I objected to predicating the "Exit Strategy" on an obviously false characterization of the terrorists we and the Iraqis are fighting as 'resistance' to "occupying forces." A further quote from Steven Vincent:
"The most despicable misuse of terminology, however, occurs when Leftists call
the Saddamites and foreign jihadists 'the resistance.' What an example of moral
inversion! For the fact is, paramilitary death squads are attacking the Iraqi
people. And those who oppose the killers--the Iraqi police and National
Guardsmen, members of the Allawi government, people like Nour--they are the
'resistance.' They are preventing Islamofascists from seizing Iraq, they are
resisting evil men from turning the entire nation into a mass slaughterhouse
like we saw in re-liberated Falluja. Anyone who cares about success in our
struggle against Islamofascism--or upholds principles of moral clarity and lucid
thought--should combat such Orwellian distortions of our language."
I don't trust any prescription for our Iraq policy that doesn't start with an honest assessment of the secular and jihadist terrorists there: they are both out to gain or regain the same unlimited power to terrorize, torture, and butcher Iraqis that Saddam once had. Any convincing cut-and-run "strategy" must start with that honest assessment of the terrorists and of the impact of our retreat on the larger war against militant Islam ('if there is a war').
Comparisons to the Vietnam war, which at its height claimed more American lives in a month than this war has in total, are hysterical.
Comparisons to the Vietnam war, which at its height claimed more American lives in a month than this war has in total, are hysterical.
Posted by: Varian at August 8, 2005 05:38 PM
TerryResponds:
Some USA Vietnam era Vets say that the war could have been won if America had not lost its will and withdrew its support for govt policy. These same vets say that the same is happening now in regard to Iraq.
What do you say Varian?
Varian wrote: "I did not say anything like 'our military has an obligation to resolve Iraq's internal warring.' I objected to predicating the 'Exit Strategy' on an obviously false characterization of the terrorists we and the Iraqis are fighting as 'resistance' to "occupying forces."
Is there a significant difference that I'm overlooking? As you said, you believe that an exit strategy must be predictated on a careful examination of those "out to gain or regain the same unlimited power to terrorize, torture, and butcher Iraqis." If that's not internal warring, then what is?
The greatest fallacy of the War in Iraq was the notion that if we succeeded in getting rid of Saddam we would end the internal struggles for power and dominance in Iraq, because Iraq was ready for peace, justice, and democracy. It simply isn't true. Those (like you, apparently) who insist that we should stay in Iraq until those goals are achieved are committing us to an endless Iraqi involvement.
Thus, the parallel I drew to Vietnam is not "hysterical" as you claimed. It's actually quite justified, because just as Vietnam was turning into an endless war before American public opinion finally forced the issue, so also Iraq is threatening to follow the same path. The issues in Vietnam were different, but the overall pattern of involvement is very similar.
Just to remind you all (and I haven't checked this thread to see if it's been mentioned already) its against the law to discuss overthrowing any part of the government (even though the constitution ends talking about how if the government gets out of hand, it is our duty as americans to revolt).
I personally think the government doesn't care and disregards what us 'civvies' have to say at all. About anything. All they have to do is smile and nod and say 'yeah, i hear you. well, why don't you take a trip down to your local city hall...'
As much as it feels good to express ones views and concerns on a web page or bash and fling poo at those you think are in the wrong, neither of those will ultimately change anything, all it will do is give other people a head-start on ways to discredit you.
What does it take to repeal a law, seriously? How many signatures are needed for the public to say 'that's it, we've had enough, this law isn't working and we have ##,### signatures that want this law repealed.' Anything more than that is just bs, with the gov't and their excuses saying, 'oh you can't do that because you need to...' blah blah blah.
The government does what it does very quietly because john q. public is busy with his own life trying to make ends meet and yadda yadda yadda and the gov't makes very little fan-fare whenever they do anything; they just make laws. I also don't think they have any real knowledge of how so many people live and suffer in the socio-economic stepladder. How much does every one of those bastards make, and yet they write laws for the lower class and think they know how those people live?
There is no doubt in my mind that marijuana is 1000x safer than alcohol. And yet they are ruining hundreds of thousands of peoples lives every year when they arrest people on simple possession charges; even if you never get sent to jail, they still have ways of making your life a living hell, such as:
no financial aid to go to college
criminal record, so you have to check off that box on job applications 'have you ever been convicted of a crime?' How humbling that must be.
Law enforcement selectively enforce it only on the minorities.
You call that justice?
YOU PEOPLE ARE SO STRONG ON THE DRUGS issues why are you not being STRONG IN ISSUES LIKE REPEALING TAXES AND EMINENT DOMAIN.
JEEZ
Responding to:
Posted by: True American at August 9, 2005 01:23 PM
"Taxation is Theft"
"Property Rights are Human Rights to Property"
"Govt has NO moral authority to do anything beyond what is moral to be done by individual persons"
MoreAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian
Ummm, I disagree with this administration -- but I don't see the point of this press release.
Honestly, the first thtough that went through my head when I read it was "WTF is the point of this press release?"
Ben wrote:
[quote]
Bush has been vacationing on Iraq, mentally and otherwise, since 2001.Every village needs an idiot,but Washington has the market cornered.
[/quote] That was good ;-)
TERRY soon it will not matter how much they tax property, we won't have a home anymore, we will be living in the streets. Then they will throw us in jail for living on the streets. Do they care about morals NOOOOOOO So much for morals.
To Libertarian TV: Are you too dense to recognize that I not only did not say our military had an obligation to do anything, I didn't mention our military at all? My point was that any valid exit strategy has to be based on an accurate assessment of what's going on now and what will happen if we leave. That's not an assertion of an obligation to do anything except draft the exit strategy from a sound basis in fact.
You seem determined to treat any disagreement with any aspect of the Exit Strategy as support for the war, which of course allows you to rant against it. I'm not interested.
The only similarity to the Vietnam War is the opposition's determination to undermine the war effort with defeatism and distortion.
The only similarity to the Vietnam War is the opposition's determination to undermine the war effort with defeatism and distortion.
Posted by: Varian at August 9, 2005 06:15 PM
TerryReminds:
Both 'wars' violate the US Constitution; so a TRUE patriot would OPPOSE these US govt mass murders.
AMERICA 'wins' when its govt lives INSIDE its Constitution.
Illicit war mongers 'oppose' CONSTITUTIONALITY with 'defeatist' balony about how compiance is obsolete.
Varian, do want to support or undermine the US govt attempt at ending the republic to impose Empire?
AlsoSee- Aggressors Promote LIMITED 'Libertarianism'
at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/38717
To: Varian,
Seems to me that these blogers are messing with you. It is simply not possible for people the can read and write to misunderstand your positions. No could be that dense. You have been clear, concise and seem to be well informed of history and current events.
One of the classic ways to extend and prevail in a debate is to intentionally misunderstand your opponent and force them to defend their words instead of ideas. A rather disingenuous way of behaving.
Separated by time, and global balance of power, the only factual comparisons between Iraq and South Vietnam is both were military conflicts and those against both, share similar ideologies. Their forefathers lobbied against the War of Independence from England, War of 1812 with England, the Spanish American War, WWI, WWII and did their best to accommodate the Soviet Empire.
Although it has never been true, for some reason the idea continues to exist, that if we leave others alone they will leave us alone
Peer2Peer:
Now Playing (Looping)
Dead Soldier's Mother, Crawford TX Vigil
on AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV
Cindy Sheehan interviewed on Democracy Now August 12, 2005 (on 'LoRez' Channel)
'Something's in the Air' Music Video ('TV' 100k)
Info http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/40033
.
TONITE: Nationwide Vigils in Memory of Fallen Soldiers
Here are some events scheduled for the next few days:
Today (Wednesday) is going to be very special, as many of you already know. Move On, along with True Majority and Democracy for America, is helping coordinate candlelight vigils at 7:30 p.m. tonight across the country to support Cindy and call for an end to the war. So far, there are at least 1,380 vigils scheduled with over 35,000 people attending. This is the largest event Move On has ever organized! Haven't signed up yet? Go for it now at www.moveon.org. If you can't find a vigil in your area, we here at Camp Casey encourage you to start one in your own hometown by registering at the same website. Even if you're the only one who holds vigil, remember that Cindy was once standing all alone, too. And just look at the numbers who have joined her since.
Speaking of numbers, we are expecting hundreds or maybe thousands of people to show up for our Interfaith service this Friday at noon to pray for the troops. While we are praying, meditating and holding vigil here at Camp Casey, please take a moment to think about the troops and hope for peace wherever you may be. If at all possible, go one step beyond and come to Crawford!!! Everyone is invited, and we extend a special invitation to religious leaders from all faiths. So please get on the phone with your minister, priest, imam, rabbi, guru, spiritual healer, or other clergy person, and encourage them to show America that the principles of peace, tolerance and justice are common to all spiritual paths and all political persuasions.
p.s. We are holding a candlelight vigil here at Camp Casey, too. It will take place at 8 p.m. instead of 7:30 p.m. as we need time to set up after Anderson Cooper airs his show live from here between 6 and 7. Since we are still in the process of arranging to move to Fred Mattlage's property, our vigil will take place at the original Camp Casey site on Prarie Chapel Road. We're planning some really great stuff, so come join us if you can!
# posted by Emily Sharpe @ 01:34 17 Aug 2005
MoreAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/40151
| 
Sounds like the perfect time for a coup to me. (just kidding FBI)
Posted by: Anonymous Coward at August 3, 2005 02:53 PM