So If I get this straight, thie guy committed crimes in the U.S, we asked Canada to get him for us, and Canada got him for us, and they're gonna send him down for trial of their own free will.

So the world hates us because we arrest people who break the law?

Not endorsing the law, but if he broke a U.S law in the U.S, he's going to be arrested for it. It's not like we sent a team of Splinter Cells in there to retrieve him.

Is there even an L.P in Canada?

The world hates us because they are jealous of our wealth, not because we arrest druglords.

Our wealth or our debt? How much is the debt now?

I would say the world hates us because of our offensive style military tatics... how many nations do we have troops in again?

Forget a withdraw plan from Iraq. What about Germany and Japan?

I am not exactly sure what authority the DEA refers to when trying to persecute Canadians. Certainly NOT the Constitution. The Federal Government doesn't even have the Constitutional Authority to persecute people for drugs here in the U.S., let alone in Canada.

Canadian's are certainly right to protest.

Canada is bound by an extradition treaty with the U.S., but in this case, I think the correct decision of a Canadian extradition court would be that the U.S. has no jurisdiction in this matter and refuse the extradition.

I agree Canadians have the right(nay, responsibility) to protest this action, but this is hardly an example of why people hate us.

By wealth, I mean individual wealth.

As for Germany and Japan, I agree we shouldn't have troops there, but their governments WELCOME us there. We aren't encroaching upon their land. I think we're even paying rent(though I may be mistaken there).

I like the BCMP website idea to refer to "prohibition-related crime," not "drug-related crime": it puts it in perspective.

So, we're wasting taxes to stay in friendly countries? Put that up on the list of "most wasteful use of taxpayer money."

We have little actual "wealth" in the sense that people actually own lots of stuff outright. Most of the trappings of "wealth" in this country are paid for on credit at high interest rates.

Canada does have a Libertarian Party, but it is roiled by factional fighting and unable to do much of anything. Their infighting makes our problems look small.

Canadians are a very tolerant poeple socially. Gays, pot smoking, they dont care. Socially, it's a much more libertarian country than the USA is.

The difference is that Canadians LOVE government. They consider it a good thing, a needed thing to make sure that business does not gain too much power and influence. They also desperately DONT want Canada to become like the USA< and treasure the differences between the 2 nations.

In another life, I had a Canadian wife, you see. :)

Saying Canadians LOVE government is like saying Americans LOVE government.

Are they individuals or not? We don't get our rights from the Constitution. They're ours inalienably. That means aliens have them, too! (You can take the person out of the country, but you can't take the rights out of the person.)

PaulP:

1) Marc Emery was no drug warlord. He ran an open business on the internet with a business address in Vancouver (for 9 years, I think).

2) Emery did not break Canadian law (there may have been some minor infractions, but the Canadians chose, for years, not to go after this very open business). Emery did not break a US law in the US. What is the point of each country having its own laws if the US will override them (much as they do with our own states)?

3) Your statement that we are not hated because of this and related arrests is absolutely incorrect. How large a list of Canadians who despise us because of our drug policies would you like for me to produce?

4) Aren't you the same guy who was criticizing the LP for being critical of Bush, too?

PaulP:

Please check out the photograph at http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d3aa799f-0e0a-45b3-9a56-2ddea3403741&page=1

and then justify that with your statement of: "The world hates us because they are jealous of our wealth..."

So, Emery did not violate any U.S. laws in the U.S., nor did he break any Canadian laws in Canada. What he's guilty of is breaking U.S. laws in Canada. Wow. So, the U.S. is *definitely* overstepping it's bounds. Although Americans most definitely bought marijuana from him, it's not his fault if they came to Canada to do it. *If* the U.S. wants to illegalize marijuana, which I'm of course against, they cannot go to other countries and force them to give up their marijuana dealers.

Cato Foreign Policy Briefing No. 50:
Does U.S. Intervention Overseas Breed Terrorism?
The Historical Record by Ivan Eland,
then director of defense policy studies at the Cato Institute
at http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb-050es.html

These are some reasons why THE 'consistent libertarian'
position is to end ALL US govt taxpayer subsidy
to ALL middle east rulers!

USA presence in the Persian Gulf helps extremists
to recruit for the holy war!

Said US Rep Ron Paul (R) in Congress Sept 25, 2001:

"The hatred has been suppressed because we are
a powerful economic and military force and
wield a lot of influence.

But this suppressed hatred is now becoming more
visible and we as Americans for the most part
are not even aware of how this could be. Americans
have no animosity toward a people they hardly
even know. Instead, our policies have been driven
by the commercial interests of a few.

And now the innocent suffer"

MoreAt http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2001/cr092501.htm

In defence of Marc Emery

If the DEA's claim that three quarters of Mr. Emery's seed sales were to
Americans is true, then doesn't that indicate a failure on the part of the
American government to stop its own citizens from breaking the law? Doesn't
it indicate a failed U.S. policy with regard to the drug war?

Why offer up a Canadian citizen for "correction" to a government that can't
even "correct" its own?

Loretta Nall, U.S. Marijuana Party, Montgomery, Alabama.

Published in the National Post August 4, 2005

Telecast soon after 911; includes ABC-TV Austin
affiliate (KVUE) street rally interview with
Terry Liberty Parker in first few minutes
in which the LIBERTARIAN response to 911
is briefly described.
RealMedia Download/Playback
http://images.indymedia.org/imc/austin/lll01100.rm

US Marijuana Party Statement on Marc Emery's Arrest

At a time when Osama bin Laden is still hiding in a cave in Afghanistan, when we have almost 2000 soldiers dead in Iraq and more dying everyday with no end in sight, when our country houses 2.5 million prisoners (more than any other country in the world), when the whole country and even Congress are slamming the ONDCP because they have used their $11 billion budget to target pot smokers while meth has run rampant we somehow find the resources to invade our sister country Canada and enforce our draconian drug laws on her citizens over some pot seeds.

This action would not be justifiable even if our drug policies were working but to force another country to abide by US laws that have failed miserably and have caused untold societal damage and erosion of our constitutional rights and civil liberties defies all logic.

Is it any wonder that people all around the world sit and plot our destruction? It is this very kind of "Imperialist Intervention" in the affairs of sovereign nations that causes Americans to be targets of "terrorists".

And until we as Americans take a strong stand against it we will never be safe in this country again...nor do we really deserve to be.

I call on all Americans, regardless of their position on marijuana, to join forces and let it be known that the citizens of our country do not support the actions of the D.E.A.
We never elected the D.E.A. and they DO NOT represent us or our interests.

Too much Terry Liberty Parker-click to another website!

Is Ron Paul the ONLY congressman we have? Their has to be more with Libertarian beliefs. Hasn't there?

Responding to
Posted by: mark san souci at August 4, 2005 07:17 PM

That's fine; if you can't stand the actual issues rebut, just 'move on' :)

Congressman Butch Otter of Idaho is somewhat Libertarian leaning, though not nearly as much as Ron Paul. There are a few others as well, actually very few others. There are the other twenty two members of the House Liberty Committee, but most of them are not nearly as Libertarian leaning as Ron Paul. The following link lists all the members of the House Liberty Caucus.

http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/

If our government's actions were so noble in Canada, then why not call a press conference and loudly proclaim, "We Got Him!" in reference to the capture of seed dealer Marc Emery. It is evident this administration enjoy's flexing its empirical muscle. But I suspect the reason this current administration would not call such a press conference is because they are smart enough to realize most Americans would be irate to lean that the US was capable of locating the marajuanna seed dealer while the man who orchestrated 911 has been alluding us for 4 years!

This action calls to question our nation's true intentions overseas.

Mark B., thanks for the info and link on the House Liberty Committee. For another ranking, see http://www.republicanliberty.org/libdex/li_look.asp (Rep. Butch Otter came out an "enterpriser" the past year).

Canada has marijuana legal and I don't think the Candaians should be enforcing a US law that contradicts Canadian law. I know Canada is trying to be a good neighboor with the US, but you can only go so far. I could see if he broke Canadian law, then they could turn him over. Marc Emery is not gulit and what gives the US the right to impose our laws on other nations. I think the US is into a second faze of Imperialism. Like I said about Germany if the United States continues on a imperialist track it will hurts us badly economically and politically.

If ots the law that we are actually talking about here, you can find several sites on the internet, as well as E-mail advertising that allows many canadian countries to sell drugs to americans without prescription or even a U.s or canadians doctors approval, so why the extradition. The U.S government has once again set it's sites on squashing anyone who tries to make the hemp plant an accepted part of american life. THIS GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT HEMP TO BECOME LEGAL IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER. Many major companies have paid millions in campaign bribes to our congress and senators and they expect favors that our politicians will certainly honor. This plant has thousands of commercial uses many major corporations want it squashed. This man pissed off a bunch of wealthy american business men and they want him shut down permanently and uncle sam is all too happy to oblige. Also, there are many reasons why the whole world is beginning to hate america. Its because our government is a bunch of arrogant, sadistic war criminals who cant seem to mind their own business.

Oops, Allows many canadian companies to sell drugs to americans without prescriptions

EDITORIAL UPDATE: Reports indicate that Emery is still in jail while complicated bail arrangements are being attempted (the problem does not appear to be money but complex administrative requirements). His latest bail status is indicated here: http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4475.html

A very recent news story from Marc Emory's home town of London, Ontario. There's much background here.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/08/05/1160179-sun.html

I was driving through British Columbia on my way back from Alaska when this story broke. On CBC radio I heard a spokesman for the Vancouver Police asked why this US request for arrest had not been executed for over one year, and he said: "We had other priorities,"

There is a lot of politics going on in this case, both within Canada and between Canada and the US.

There is a Libertarian Party in Canada. I took a look at their website they have emergency drives. There party does not look to good. Were the only real functioning Libertarian Party in the World. We need to continue to function and become a major party. If we can be a major functioning Libertarian Party in the US, then we would be a alternative to the 2 party system and that would be encouragement to our Canadian counterparts to get more proactive and clean up their party also.

It is legal for U.S. companies to kill thousands of citizens by selling "legal" drugs that they KNOW cause harm, and yet the U.S. government goes after a Canadian citizen who sells a drug that has documented beneficial effects. The only reason pot is not legal is because the power structure will lose money when their "legal" drugs are no longer used. Decriminalize pot NOW!!!

It is absolutely imperative: Anyone who has ever smoked a joint or taken a bong hit; anyone who has ever been friends or family with someone who has partaken of the "evil weed" without ruining their own lives or the lives of others; anyone who knows a medical cannabis patient or is one; anyone who cares about the idea of liberty and the citizen responsibility to force the government to mind its own business -- all must act together to vote out the drug warriors. Their time is over.

I would like to see the LP work with NORML and other groups to rate our elected officials in DC and the State Capitals on their neutrality or opposition to the Drug War. We should reward those who score high, and send the rest packing. No exceptions. The message must be loud and clear: The People end the Drug War. The Berlin Wall fell; ending the Drug War is doable.

We have seen Congress fail us, the Executive fail us, and -- most egregiously -- the Supreme Court fail us. Common sense appears to be a quality that we can't expect from government, so the people will need to enforce it.

this is a perfict example of changing the way taxes are collected and given away! lets break the feds of the habit of taking our monies and spending them on B.S. .if we had a 10% sales tax across the board, and had exempitions for food or necessary items, and kept all but 10% for each county , and send that to the state, then have the state take 10% out of all they collect , and pass that on to the fed gov and see if they can do things that are not granted them in the constitution !
this is a great way for people to take responsability for whom they elect! will this person be the best to run your city, county state? as opposed to who they have backing them!

Dude, your name is so long that I think I'll just call you Victor. :-)

Anyway, can you go further into detail on how this would work. I apologize but I need to know the exact workings of this plan.

Does this information (the Emery situation) being posted on the LP website mean that the LP is going to reverse it's decision not to allow Kubby access to it's mailing list, or is the LP just trying to make political hay of this latest "drug war" atrocity, without having to act to help one of it's own?

VICTOR LONG NAME sound like a plan, how do this and when do we put this in action. I want to add that a bottom up approach may be more rational however.

Canada is not a model country, they retrict free speech, which would you rather have, legalize dope or free speech, they have strict gun control.

Stephen Gordon:

It is my understanding that the guy was selling and sending marijuna seeds to U.S. customers. That is in breakage of US law, and I think commerce like that would qualify as a crime committed in the US. If he was just selling the seeds to Canadian customers, he wouldn't be touchable, and rightly so.

As for the US overstepping its bonds, it seems the situation was that the US said "Hey Canada, this guy was selling his product in the US(through commerce), we want to arrest him for that." And then Canada replied "Ok, sure, we'll go get him for you." If the US had gotten the guy by force, or even just flat out demanded that Canada extradite the guy, that would be overstepping its bounds. All the US did was ask for the guy, and then he was delivered.

Now I agree the law he broke shouldn't even be law, but he did break it by sending his product through commerce to United States customers, which is illegal. The people in the US who he was selling the seed were probably not growing it just to smoke. They, more likely, are druglords. My definition of druglord is a little broader than yours, I don't mean drug warlord, I mean someone who distributes drugs to sellers.

It sounds like he was arrested because he was selling this stuff to US customers through commerce, which is totally illegal, even if it shouldn't be. It is overstepping to demand or take things from other countries, but to simply request something is not.

And yes, I have criticized the LP, not for criticizing Bush, but for overly criticizing Bush. But that's another story.

When I see headlines like "No Wonder the World Hates Us" I can't help but get angry, because the majority of the world does NOT hate us, and headlines like that make it sound like the people who do are justified in doing so.

Canadians should be protesting their OWN government for extraditing this man, they shouldn't be protesting us for requesting it.

Victor,

Whjile different from what you're laying out, there is a sales tax plan before Congress right now, the Fair Tax plan, which will call for an end to all corporate, income, estate, social security, medicare, medicaid, property, and all other Federal taxes. It replaces it with a 23% sales tax on new goods and services. But with the tax windfall corporations will receive, they will lower prices by about the same amount, thanks to competition. International companies will learn about our tax free system and flock to the U.S creating jobs, people will be able to invest without penalty, and rainbow flavored skittles will fall from the sky. OK, maybe not that last part.

The tax will automatically change itself via a formula to make sure that the Government can NEVER make more or less tax revenue than it does currently, making it revenure neutral. Because of this, Congress will know exactly how much they have to spend and so will the voters, who will pay more attention to how that money is spent. Politicians will not be able to get away with going into debt.

And every family will receive a tax rebate at the beginning of every month, paying for the expected sales tax on necessities such as food, which is calculated based on poverty levels.

This is an amazing plan and I have no idea why the LP hasn't embraced it yet. My God, it is the END of all income taxes!

Yeah, a little off topic, but victor started it ;-).

I think its easier for some to hate rather than say thank you. That way there is no responsiblity to repay, acknowledge or say thank you.

The drug thing is a whole nother issue, as is our relationship with Canada.

Just by the wording of the question, it sounds like someone is stiring up mess. Can someone state the law why he was arrested?

Is there a fourm about protecting our borders here? Why is our government concerned about m- seeds and not terriost seeds coming in to this country?

I find it disturbing that during an all-consuming "war on terror", the feds still find the time to bust a Canadian entrepreneur selling marijuana seeds over the internet.
This really is rediculous on so many levels, it's bordering on humurous (if it wasn't so disturbing).

Of course, this proves one thing I already knew--

Canada's balls have been kept in a drawer somewhere in DC, for a long, long time.

Actually the U.S. Libertarian party is far from being the only functioning party in the world. Costa Rica's is much larger, and actually has members in there national legislature. In a hair salon near where I live, they sell hand lotion made from marijuana. They call it "Hempz". Why doesn't the marijuana party merge with our party? We are all on the same side.

I gotta take issue with the "No wonder the rest of the World Hates Us" mantra. That is crap for Dems and other socialists to spout. I dont care if the French, the Canadians, The British, Germans, Chinese, Koreans or Japanse hate us. We do more charity work for the world than all those Pinko nations combined (although we shouldn't). Canada exists solely as a suburb of the U.S. It spends nothing on its military because it knows nobody can mess with them b/c they are a neighbor of the U.S. Europe did nothing to save itself from Nazi rule. The Russians and Americans are alone responsible for breaking Hitler. When those Euro's need help in the future, I say we let them go it alone. They all seem quite keen on letting us do everything in the world on our own, with our man and women, and at our expense.

PAUL P if I am understanding this correctly, does that mean we do not have to pay property tax? The only thing is, is congress going to reject that like they do everything else that is beneficial to us and not for them. I want to know more about this fair tax.

You can find otu more at fairtax.org , or look up HR 25.

Yes, federal property taxes would be gone, though you might still have some state and county taxes. The sales tax is something I was very skeptical of at first, but the more I read about it, the more everything clicked into place. Neal Boortz actually wrote a book on it that came out this week. I don't want to hijack the thread to shill for my favorite new proposal though.

It actually stands a good chance though, they have a score card on the website and a lot of politicians have already given support. The book is the number one non fiction seller I believe, or will be very soon. It is even reported that someone who was on a tour of Air Force one saw a copy of the book on the president's desk.

Am I the only one who sees how completely ridiculous this US request is? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills...

Marc Emery has paid over $380,000 in income tax to the Canadian Federal Government over the past 5 years from the income generated by sales of the marijuana seeds. He has apparently always been quite open about the business and its activities for the past 9 years.

The idea that the Canadian authorities, complicit for the entire duration of the sale, would about-face at this point and extradite him to a jurisdiction with much harsher sentences for the same offense is horrifying to me. And yes, its a crime in Canada as well. The Vancouver police are presumedly more occupied preventing terrorists and guns getting into the port of vancouver than they are marijuana seeds getting out... Where are YOUR priorities, Mr. Alberto Gonzalez (US-AG)?

On a side note, I read today that most illegal weapons in Canada (*violent crime*) come from the states. Where is US law enforcement? They've got their hands full with a rather less threatning problem it seems....

Jason,

Recently the Costa Rica libertarian movement went through a split, which from my reading involved *what else* "principled anarchists team" going up against the "unprincipled sellouts team".

You could not make up this stuff if you were writing a screenplay. :D

The unprincipled sellouts "won", and the other side decided to vacate the building. They wrote much rain and ruin about their downfall, and they were pretty spiteful and hateful. Since they dont accept anyone as libertarians except themselves, according to them, there is no libertarian movement in COsta Rica anymore.

I havent heard from the "winners", but it will be interesting to see what happens down there. Might be a foretelling of what happens here, one way or the other.

You guys do know National's 56K in the red, right?

I don't think the LP should merge with the Marijuana party. The LP should be trying to avoid the ongoing pigeon holing it's already suffered.

PAUL P> ok I looked at the site, I will have to relook again. While it is 23% I see, that can go up, what if they make it 40% sales tax?
The other question what about people on disability who can't work, people who need extensive medicare help or etc.

FROM JOSEPH FARAH'S G2 BULLETIN
How Osama bought bomb
Al-Qaida directs poppy cultivation under noses of U.S. occupation of Afghanistan
Posted: July 25, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Osama bin Laden has spent billions of dollars on the successful purchase and development of nuclear weapons – money his al-Qaida terrorist network earned by directing poppy cultivation in the fields of Afghanistan, right under the noses of U.S. occupation forces, reports Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

That is the finding of sources of the premium, online intelligence newsletter published by the founder of WND as well as the investigative work of journalist Paul L. Williams, who documents the stunning revelation in his upcoming book, "The Al Qaeda Connection: International Terrorism, Organized Crime and the Coming Apocalypse."
The vast drug fortune has also aided al-Qaida in smuggling some of those nuclear weapons – along with thousands of sleeper agents – over the Mexican border with the help of the MS-13 criminal street gang, say the sources.

According to captured al-Qaida leaders and documents, bin Laden's terrorist network has a plan called "American Hiroshima" involving the multiple detonation of nuclear weapons already smuggled into the U.S.

Al-Qaida has obtained at least 40 nuclear weapons from the former Soviet Union – including suitcase nukes, nuclear mines, artillery shells and even some missile warheads. In addition, documents captured in Afghanistan show al-Qaida had plans to assemble its own nuclear weapons with fissile material it purchased on the black market.

Besides trying to detonate its own nuclear weapons already planted in the U.S., military sources also say there is evidence to suggest al-Qaida is paying former Russian special forces officers to assist the terrorist group in locating nuclear weapons formerly concealed inside the U.S. by the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Osama bin Laden's group is also paying nuclear scientists from Russia and Pakistan to maintain its existing arsenal and assemble additional weapons with the materials it has invested hundreds of millions in procuring over a period of 10 years.

The plans for the devastating nuclear attack on the U.S. have been under development for more than a decade. It is designed as a final deadly blow of defeat to the U.S., which is seen by al-Qaida and its allies as "the Great Satan."

At least half the nuclear weapons in the al-Qaida arsenal were obtained for cash from the Chechen terrorist allies.

At least nine major U.S. cities, including New York and Washington, are prime targets for the al-Qaida nuclear terrorists.

Bin Laden's preferred dates for attacks include Aug. 6, the anniversary of the Hiroshima nuclear bombing in 1945, Sept. 11 and May 14, the anniversary of the re-creation of the state of Israel in 1948. The 60th anniversary of the Hiroshima attack will be marked next month.

Some skeptical of the alarming news have suggested bin Laden could never have achieved such results with his limited funds and a personal fortune estimated by the FBI and CIA at around $250 million.

In truth, Williams reports, bin Laden had lost his family fortune before he ever got to Afghanistan in 1996. Some of that money had already been spent in his quest for the weapons of mass destruction he believed he needed to wage a successful jihad against the greatest superpower on the planet. That search began by 1993 when al-Qaida is believed to have purchased weapons-grade uranium purloined from South Africa.

But, with the help of Taliban leader Sheikh Mullah Omar, bin Laden created a much bigger fortune by taking control of the Afghan poppy fields, refining the heroin into the highest quality and striking deals with Turkish drug lords and the Albanian Mafia to distribute it worldwide.

According to Yossef Bodansky, former director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare and author of "Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America," by the late 1990s, under bin Laden's direction, Afghanistan was selling $7 billion to $8 billion worth of drugs in the West each year.

"When Americans buy drugs, they fund the jihad," he said.

Nothing has changed with the U.S.-led occupation of Afghanistan – except that the flow of heroin has increased.

In 2004, according to the United Nations, opium poppy cultivation in Afghanistan rose by two-thirds, climbing to 320,000 acres and producing a yield of 4,200 metric tons.

"Prior to bin Laden's exile from Sudan, the heroin that came out of the Golden Crescent was low-grade No. 3," reports Williams in his upcoming book. "It was a product that was good only for smoking or snorting."

But Omar and bin Laden recognized there was a growing worldwide market for No. 4 heroin that could be shot into veins.

"To meet the demand for this product, bin Laden established sophisticated laboratories near Kabul and recruited chemists from Pakistan, China and the former Soviet Union," writes Williams.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45426

For Freedom,

Yes, congress could raise it if they so desired. The difference here is that it must be uniform. with the current system, politicians play to special interest groups and say "These people don't vote for us so we'll go ahead and raise taxes on them, it will be okay". If they want to do it with a uniform sales tax, it gets raised on everybody. They can't get away with it, voters would kick them out of office.

Medicare and other government welfare programs would still be paid for. The rate of the sales tax takes into account all of those costs, and will raise the same amount of money as all current taxes do today. For all of those government programs it doesn't change any of them it just changes the way they get money to pay for them.

Paul:

Until Raich v. Ashcroft, at least, it was legal for certain US citizens to purchase marijuana seeds. Is Emery expected to know the laws of each location in the US in order to sell seeds to them, or do the American purchasers have that responsibility?

We can look at this another way, too. If a Canadian tourist is driving through Virginia and stops by a gun dealer to purchase a (prohibited, by Canadian law) semi-automatic rifle, should that gun dealer be required to know the laws of Canada, the province in which the person resides, and city and laws?

Should Canadians arrest the gun dealer for selling a rifle which is illegal in Canada?

An even better example would be a Canadian purchasing a clip or magazine from an online American company. Should the American sporting goods website be reuired to know which clips and magazine are illegal in Canada? Or does the buyer have that responsibility?

Certainly we wouldn't wish to see American sporting goods suppliers extridited to Canda for charges such as these.

John,

The LP position on providing Kubby the mailing list has nothing to do with this blog entry. I've got no control over the disposition of LP lists, but have reasonable control over what I personally post on this site.

As a disclaimer, I should indicate that I facilitated an initial conversation between Michelle Kubby and Michael Badnarik in order for the KDF to use his mailing list.

No, in this theoretical example where it is legal to sell a gun to anyone in Virginia, that seller should not face charges in Canada. If that seller, however, mails the gun to a Canadian, where it is theoretically illegal, then he would be guilty of a crime.

And I would have to say yes, for the gun dealer selling over the Internet, he should know international laws if he is going to do business internationally. I actually was going to use an argument exactly like this, using guns as an example, but decided against it because it thought make me look anti-gun(which I'm not, I'm just using them as an example). Weird that you used the same argument, but opposite-like.

But in the situation of a guy violating Canada's laws who lives in the US. I think it would be perfectly acceptable for Canada to request extradition for a trial. It would then be up to the U.S government to decide whether or not to send him. The correct decision would be to not send him because he is a US citizen, but Canada would be welcome to file a civil suit against him.

That's what Canada should have said, "No, we're keeping him here, he's broken no Canadian laws, but feel free to file civilly against him."

You know I am sick of hearing about this. We have over a million people in jail in the United States most who were convicted of simple possesion of an illegal substance, most are minorities and we are arguing over ONE person? This is the reason why there aren't many minorities in the LP because the LP does not talk about isses concerning minorities.Where's the minority outreach? It's non-existent. Let's talk about the injustices in this country first before we talk about the injustice of some Canadian.

Hey, he's only one person, but that makes him the smallest minority of all. That is a very good point, though.

Chris:

The reasons I covered this are two-fold (and not about one man):

1) Foreign policy -- at what point will the United States stop telling other countries how to conduct their affairs?
2) Political implications within the US -- this will certainly impact (already has) some US Libertarians, and could lead to similar activities directed against allied marijuana advocacy organizations or perhaps the LP itself. That the DEA requested that the Canadians raid the headquarters of an established political party is scary. A quote (via the Seattle P-I) from the Drug Enforcement Administration boss Karen Tandy also provides their intent to use law enforcement power for political purposes:

"Today's arrest of Mark (sic) Scott Emery, publisher of Cannabis Culture magazine and the founder of a marijuana legalization group, is a significant blow not only to the marijuana trafficking trade in the U.S. and Canada, but also to the marijuana legalization movement."

"Hundreds of thousands of dollars of Emery's illicit profits are known to have been channeled to marijuana legalization groups active in the United States and Canada. Drug legalization lobbyists now have one less pot of money to rely on."

Wow, I did not see those quotes before. That is scary. Taking out the money supply for lobbyists you disagree with? That I can take issue with. If it was just law enforcement, I wouldn't have a problem, but that borders on the line of arresting people with viewpoints you disagree with.

Wish you would have put more of those reasons in the opening post.

Paul - Unfortunately, I did not have those quotes then, but had inside information (which could not be published) which provided the same.

It's not "US" in America they should hate, but the policies of the Republican and Democratic parties that have created the outrageous legal theory that legal trade from another country is a crime in the US. ironically enough, this country has gone to war on the opposite principle.

This is also an extension of the "comunity standards" doctrine that arrests publishers in New York and drags them to small towns run by religious fanatics for trials on things made illegal there--and often for selling to local police as part of a sting.

And yes, there is a strong Libertarian movement in Canada for which Mr. Emery is a supporter.

For more information on Libertarian groups in over 100 countries, go to http://www.Libertarian-international.org. LIO has already written to Canadian and UN officals expressing its concern over what is really a transparent political persecution.

The most productive way to appeal to Canadians on this is to appeal to their national pride as a separate nation. If there's one thing that riles Canadians, it's having Canada seem like a tool of the US. They revel in the differences and seek to console and rejoice in the differences, especially after Bush got elected.

What would get Canadians up in arms about this is not "american" appeals to freedom but that this is just another example of Canada rolling over to the US in matters it has no business in inside Canadian borders.

I've heard of how Canada is often thought of as being a tool of the United States. But I've also heard of how some people think that Canada would become territory of the United States. Can somebody please tell me how this theory came about?

Paul P. writes: "As for Germany and Japan, I agree we shouldn't have troops there, but their governments WELCOME us there. We aren't encroaching upon their land. I think we're even paying rent(though I may be mistaken there)."

There is a difference between a foreign government, bribed by our own, countenancing a U.S. military presence in the country it rules, and the people of that country "welcom[ing]" that presence.

Stephen:

Regarding the mailing list for KDF: good work. Thanks.

--John

FREE MARK EMERY: http://billstclair.com/blog/stories/freemarc.html

Has cool gif for your site...

WRITE OFFICIALS: http://www.libertarian-blog.uni.cc/

Libertarian hawks applaud the LP staff's position supporting Marc Emory. Why isn't this given prominance equal to the ridiculous "Iraq Exit Plan", including press release and an appearance on the Holmes radio show?

The War on Drugs is counterproductive to the War on Terrorism. The illegality drives up the price 1000-fold. At the same time, drug producers seek protection from criminal gangs such as Al Qaeda. The main revenue source for Osama bin Laden is the poppy fields in Afghanistan.

American policies shouldn't be driven by what others think. For every one pothead or social libertarian who hates the US for it's misguided anti-drugs war, there maybe two social conservative who applaud.

Further, if LP policies were driven by popularity, LP staff would propose a more aggressive policy against foreign tyrants and terrorists.It's a bit disengenuous to cite popular support as a reason for adopting a policy, but only when in agreement with one's predisposed policies.

Please, join our discussions and strategizing at: fightforliberty@yahoogroups.com

Kevin:

To make it clear, I am not a staff member.

Because of the drug war, foreign policy, and suppression of political parties by US law enforcement agencies, I feel this is a high priority issue -- which is why I posted it.

However, most things I personally post here are based on current newsworthiness - and not necessarily by what I feel is the political priority.

Shane,

I am not getting it! A citizen that violated the law in the U.S. was apprehended in Nova Scotia and law enforcement asked for him to be extidited to answer the charges in court. Canadians and the LP don't like the law he broke so Canada shouldn't honor the extridition treaty so he can avoid his day in court. We are supposed to be upset? About what? He didn't know so he is innocent! He knew it was illegal but did it anyway because he couldn't control himself! He knew but thought the law was for someone else. The devil made him do it! Point of law: Ignorance is no excuse. Dissagreement with a law is no excuse. So law enforcement shouldn't enforce the law because you don't like the law? I'm not realy not getting it at all!

It is one thing to think the war on drugs, began in the 70's, causes extraordinary economic incentives and attracts violence in the process, but it is quite another to expect Canada and U.S law enforcement to ignore enforcement because some think the policy is not the best approach to the social and economic damage caused by drug addics. Decisions of that level belong to the public through elected legislators.

Newsflash from the LNC meeting

George Phillies reports:

Zero dues passes [by] 8-7-1 effective January 2006.

UMP is ended, effective 9/20/2005 on a 10-5 vote.

States will have a choice of 6 months at the full rate and 12 months at the phaseout rate.

I will be providing more details, as they become available, at http://www.libertyforsale.com

Stockman -

1) He was not in the United States when he sold the seeds.

2) They raided a political party headquarters.

3) DEA officials indicated by their own quotes that they are trying to shut down political opposition to the war on drugs both in Canada and in the US:

"Today's arrest of Mark (sic) Scott Emery, publisher of Cannabis Culture magazine and the founder of a marijuana legalization group, is a significant blow not only to the marijuana trafficking trade in the U.S. and Canada, but also to the marijuana legalization movement."

"Hundreds of thousands of dollars of Emery's illicit profits are known to have been channeled to marijuana legalization groups active in the United States and Canada. Drug legalization lobbyists now have one less pot of money to rely on."

You know why alot of countries hate us. Not because where wealthy or our freedoms. It is because the U.S is always involved in another country's business.

Stockman-
Point to the section of the constitution that gives the federal government authority to implement the 1971 narcotic laws. It is funny your saying that this Canadian citizen should follow our laws when the federal government won't follow it's own law. This law is not with in the enumerated powers of the federal government and therfore not truly law.

Troop cuts in Iraq feasible - House Republican Sun Aug 7, 5:44 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States might be able to remove up to 30,000 troops from Iraq by next spring as the Iraqi military gets stronger, the chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Armed Services Committee said on Sunday.

ADVERTISEMENT

Separately, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Time magazine that Iraqi insurgents were losing steam as a political force even though their ability to kill and maim appeared undiminished.

Rep. Duncan Hunter (news, bio, voting record), a California Republican, said on CBS' "Face the Nation" it was feasible to begin planning for U.S. troop reductions of that size even though recent deadly attacks have again raised questions about whether Washington has underestimated the Iraqi insurgency.

Reports indicate "there is a growing strong core of strength in the Iraqi military, that it's standing and fighting, that it's doing its share of the load," Hunter said.

Rice said the Iraqi insurgency was losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

"I do think the insurgency has a problem, which is that as the political process matures and the Iraqis every day accept the political process as their future, (the insurgents) become more and more isolated from the population and they become nothing but a destructive force," Rice told Time.

More progress was being made in Iraq than the rising U.S. death toll suggests, Rice said.

"It's a lot easier to see the violence and suicide bombing than to see the rather quiet political progress that's going on in parallel," she said.

On Wednesday a roadside bomb just outside Haditha, 120 miles northwest of Baghdad, killed 14 Marines, the deadliest attack of its kind since the war began.

Sen. Jack Reed (news, bio, voting record), a Rhode Island Democrat and member of the Armed Services Committee, cautioned that success in Iraq depends on meaningful political and economic develpment.

"And that's going to take a long time," Reed told CBS.

Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. Middle East commander, has outlined a plan that would reduce American forces in Iraq by some 20,000 to 30,000 by next spring if the security and political situation allows it, The New York Times reported on Sunday.

There are currently some 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, and Abizaid's plan calls for the number to rise temporarily to 160,000 in December to provide security for elections of a new Iraqi National Assembly, the paper said.

Sen. Joseph Biden (news, bio, voting record) of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, told the "Fox News Sunday" program that the United States should clarify its objectives rather than discuss a military drawdown.

"One is, we should state forthrightly, 'We have no desire to have a permanent base there.' Two, 'We have no desire to deal with their oil,"' Biden said.

Matt, here's the part of the constitution that supposedly allows the federal drug war:

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

Somehow "among" means "within" to the supreme court and congress, but not to dictionary.com. Read some more about Gibbons vs. Ogden, you'll see how they stretch to it's limit and beyond, the meaning of the word "among".

http://www.landmarkcases.org/gibbons/home.html

Re Drugs: The US Gov. could stop the "war" on drugs any time they like. As a matter of fact they could also put an end to drug trafficking tomorrow. Indeed, they could round up all the connections right to the top, probably in less than a week, if they wanted to. They don't. They make too much money out of it.

Re Alluding to Bush Jnr's comment "Why they hate us" (I thought he answered his rhetorical
"because they hate our Freedom"?). Anyway, clearly the hate is generated against a
country that keeps bashing - up little countries that can't hit back. The hate is against the murder of thousands of men, women and children, while their cities and neighbourhoods are demolished. The hate, no doubt, is also against the use of bogus excuses for "pre - emptive" and internationally unconstitutional strikes, based on Spin Doctored campaigns & outright lies. The hate is continued against a country whose leaders are personally involved in the sale of arms and ammunition to the world and then declars war on it.(not to mention what the same leaders make in the reconstruction of the country that they have levelled).

Sadly, The behaviour of out - of - control leaders of a country, translates to its people in the eyes of others.

Our Australian Fed. Gov. is mimicking your leaders
in so much, now, and like the 'States, they are pushing through draconian, unconstitutional "laws"
at the expense of lost liberties and freedom to
the people. We don't have decent, conscionable men looking after us anymore. Not for thirty years, or more, have we had men like P.M Chifley, Curtin & the excellent American Statesman KIng O'Malley. We just have Treasonous and unconscionable quislings to their Big Money masters. Did you know that our "leaders" have taken Treason as an offence, off the books? (and without any reference to the Australian people)

There are many of us trying desperately to wake our fellow Australians. Against ignorance and a rather controlled mass media - it aint easy.

Do hope that everyone who reads this will believe
the truth (as many of you do) that there is NO "war on terrorism". Like many other scams perpetrated by the very people who are paid to protect us, the W.O.T., W.T.C. Bali & London Bombings, (and some research, now, on the tsunami, believe it or not, as another possible) are designed as a collective sugar pill to make war and mayhem around the world, palatable to further insane political agendas.

Gee, and I always learned that everyone in the world loves the U.S. and its leaders' crazy, mixed-up, lying, cheating agendas...

A British friend of mine once explained to me that one of the reaons a lot of Europeans detest us is that our attitude comes across as "we're better than you" "we have greater know how than you" "We know what it takes to get things done" -- and that many Europeans have a deepdown suspicion the Americans are correct in their attitude. Interesting theory anyway!

namelss poster-
That is my point, the federal government does not follow it's own law. We also saw conseravtive activism from Scaila on the medical marijuna case because if the ruling would have went the way of California it would have proven that the 1971 narcotics law would have fallen outside the scope of this section as well. In fact the government argued that very point as a reason not to allow the California law to stand. They know it is outside the scope of this section but the song and dance continues from all three branches of the federal government.

This is typical of the LP and why it is a waste of time. Rich white American's whining about a stoner who broke the law and that the US worked with Canada to arrest him and send him back for trial. Big deal. This happens all the time. The LP needs to stop worrying about it's precious rights to get stoned and kill oneself or continue to see more people make it out to be a joke for stoners to hang out and whine.

Tom Peterson,

If you consider the LP to be a waste of time, why are you here?

That is typical of morons that can't understand that the issue is about making the government follow the constituiton not making up the law as it is goes along. That is typical of idiots that seem to have flunked history and think we have a mobocracy when we have a constitutional republic. The idea is to have a government follow it's own laws so people are free to their own lives not have morons like you live it for them.

Hmmmnn. So everybody but "stoners" have rights??? Kind of an interesting theory.

I think I will stick with the better theory of full civil rights and liberties for all, including "stoners".

Posted by: matt at August 7, 2005 12:38 PM

Shame said Us Law enforcement asked the Canadian government to extradite the guy. If the requet is according to law they will and should get his day in court. I just don't see an extridition request has anything to do with the charges.

Stephen Gordon at August 6, 2005 10:45 PM

Stephen to the best of my recollection the DEA is a law enforcement agency charged with the duty to identify and apprehend those who deal in illegal drugs.

While I agree with the principle that government should not control what adult citizens eat, smoke, drink or what other stupid things we might choose ingest, I accept that is a minority view. The majority of the public disagrees with that accessment. The fact is there are drug laws and the DEA among others are charged with a duty to enforce them. Those charged get their day in court.

Whether one agrees with their mission, or not, we have no reason targeting foreign people in other countries.

What is even scarier is that the DEA is bragging about shutting down POLITICAL OPPOSITION, including in the US.

Everyone, no matter their feelings on this topic, should be very afraid when government agencies have an express and stated goal of shutting down political opposition.

The majority agreed with slavery, Mr. Stockman. The majority agreed that blacks shouldn't have the same rights as whites, Mr. Stockman. The majority agreed that women shouldn't be allowed to vote or have jobs, Mr. Stockman. The majority agreed with all of those and more. It was the minority that had to show the majority that we have rights, and no one can take them away. I believe it was Eugene V. Debs who said, "The majority is always wrong." The majority today also believes that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. What do you believe?

washingtonpost.com
Pentagon Expects to Send More Iraq Troops

By ROBERT BURNS
The Associated Press
Monday, August 8, 2005; 2:49 PM

WASHINGTON -- Anticipating a new burst of insurgent violence, the Pentagon plans to expand the U.S. force in Iraq to improve security for a planned October referendum and a December election.

Although much public attention has been focused recently on the prospect of reducing U.S. forces next spring and summer, defense officials foresee the likelihood of first increasing troop levels.

Lawrence Di Rita, spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, noted Monday that troop levels were raised last January during Iraq's first elections, and then returned to the current level of about 138,000 several weeks later.

"It's perfectly plausible to assume we'll do the same thing for this election," he said, while stressing that no decisions had been made.

Di Rita said he did not know how many extra troops might be needed during the referendum and election period.

Other officials have said that once the election period has passed and the troop total recedes to the 138,000 level, a further reduction in the range of 20,000 to 30,000 is possible next spring and summer. That could change, however, if the insurgency intensifies or an insufficient number of U.S.-trained Iraqi security forces prove themselves battle ready.

Last January the U.S. troop level rose as high as 160,000. This was accomplished mainly by overlapping some units arriving in Iraq to begin a one-year tour with those who were ending their yearlong tours. In at least one case an Army brigade was kept a little longer than its scheduled 12 months in Iraq, and Di Rita said he could not rule out this happening again this fall, although the intention is to avoid tours longer than 12 months.

"The units that are there have been told to expect that," he said. "It's possible that your planned rotation dates back to the U.S. will be affected by the need to keep a higher level for a longer period of time. They understand that."

Di Rita said commanders may also ask for volunteers to serve extended tours.

Another possibility is that some U.S.-based troops will be sent to Iraq to augment the force during the election period. One unit called upon most frequently for that kind of duty is the 82nd Airborne Division, which currently is deploying a battalion to Afghanistan to bolster security in advance of Sept. 18 elections there.

Di Rita said no elements of the 82nd had been alerted to prepare for similar duty in Iraq this fall.

U.S. commanders predict a need for extra troops this fall in Iraq because the insurgents have tended to intensify their attacks when key political milestones approached. If a draft constitution is ready by Aug. 15, as intended, then a national referendum on that charter is to be held Oct. 15, followed by December elections based on the constitution.

Rumsfeld recently mentioned his expectation that insurgent violence will increase in the weeks ahead.

"We can reasonably expect _ both in Afghanistan and in Iraq _ to see an increase of violence as they continue to move towards their political goals: in the case of Afghanistan, September 18th _ the provincial and the parliamentary elections _ and in the case of Iraq, the referendum on October 15th for the constitution," he said July 20.

Among the Army units scheduled to deploy to Iraq in coming months is the 101st Airborne Division, which was part of the original invasion force in 2003 and returned home early in 2004, as well as the 4th Infantry Division, which arrived in Iraq shortly after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003. Those two divisions have since been reorganized and now have four combat brigades each, rather than three each.

___

REVOLUTION TIME

First comment:

'The world hates us because they are jealous of our wealth, not because we arrest druglords.'

Posted by: Paul P. at August 4, 2005 05:32 PM

Our wealth? Our 14 billion dollar deficit is wealth to you?

I don't see how we (the U.S.) have ANY authority over people that are not only NOT U.S. citizens but also not even IN the U.S.

Eventually, I don't know when, this bubble is going to burst and the U.S. will have to admit they were wrong about marijuana. With every day that passes, more evidence is being proven that marijuana is nowhere near as dangerous as alcohol or tobacco...the two legal drugs.

Read this and inform yourself:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

Can we start posting links to the law and why this was illegal? Its clear from the post most dont get the point.

Help make the U.S. a republic on wiki!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

How would we react if Saudi Arabia came and started spraying our barley crops and arresting our liquor distributors because alcohol is illegal in their country?
How would we feel if another country came and invaded one of our political party offices?
With the drug war the American government declared war on people who did not provoke a war.
I my opinion almost all of our elected officials have committed treason with this declaration of war against its own citizens - without provocation. They should be treated as the treasonous pigs they are.
Unfortunately they are too strong to fight and a good portion of American citizens are also fascist pigs who have no idea of what true freedom/liberty is. That is how we got into this mess - because of un-american Americans who vote. Most are fascist Christians.
The government enforcers can legally kill us, but if we even speak out against them they can arrest us on terrorism charges.
Prohibition is "inherently" evil - it doesn't follow the Golden Rule of "treat others as you wish to be treated". Raised as a Christian I believe that anything that doesn't follow the Golden Rule is inherently evil.
If I had not read the Bible I would think that natural plant "drugs" are not good or bad - they simply "are"; but since I have read the Bible I believe that all natural "drugs" were created "good" in the eyes of God. Therefore, marijuana is a "good" plant because that is how God made it. Prohibition is evil because it doesn't follow the most basic christian teaching.
Anyone who arrests and jails someone for possessing a "good" plant made by God is evil and should be punished.
Anyone how has ever worked for the DEA and did not quit in disgust should be imprisoned for a very long time and their assets should be given to the non-violent drug war prisoners who should be given amnesty. The Drug War kingpins should be executed.
I have had it with the fascist pigs in our government who won't even discuss the issue of the drug war. What do people do when the elected officials won't even talk about the issue?

someone wrote that Canada doesn't have free speech - we don't have it either if it is contrary to what the government wants us to say - the Patriot Act made sure of that. It is just a matter of whether or not the enforcers "want" to arrest us for saying what we believe. They can come up with reasons to arrest dissenters if they want.
Remember Kent State? American military shooting and killing college student war protesters?
I don't know what to call this country anymore, America is dead and we are not as free as we think.

I agree that too many people are too fascist in this country, especially the fascist christians. It's horrible that so many americans believe that their own rights should be limited and arbitrarily violated. If you don't want to live in a free country, then you can just get out. Another amazing fact: it's the fascist americans (social conservatives) that are the ones who believe they are the "most american." They don't know what being "american" means. One of the major problems is that the GOP and various christian media are teaching people that America was founded on christianity and therefore we should impose all christian ideals unto the american gov't. Somehow the War on Drugs is a christian ideal. Dave above posted a very good argument against that. We need to teach people that you can be christian *and* american at the same time. Live by your rules, but don't impose them on the rest of us.

HAAAA HAAAAA America founded on Christianity haaa haaaa, how about the Indians were here first, or better yet, this land is founded by the Supreme being himself. G-d gave this land to the people to take care of, share and preserve. NOT DISTROY, CONTROL, CONQUER, GREED, too many hypocrite.

I have to ask if any LP bloggers have a life or a job? So much useless spew this is why the rest of the US writes us off as a joke.

The rest of the World doesn't like us because they are jealous of our lifestyle. We enjoy a relatively luxurious lifestyle compared to much of the World. I don't think that is any excuse to us to feel guilty about the way we live. Should we become another Third World country just to placate the other countries? Not hardly. Our military might is something to fear, and they are also envious of our military. However, I agree that we have troops in some countries where they should not be. Germany and many other European countries come to mind. Let them defend their own country. They have their own military. We need our military here to guard our borders, where illegals can just waltz right across the border with impugnity. If illegal Mexicans or Central Americans can cross, so can Middle Eastern terrorists. I am sick of reading the American bashing in these blogs. Sure there is a lot wrong with the way our country is run ie. taxes etc. but we are still the greatest country on the planet and we should be damned proud of it. You can be a libertarian and still be a proud American and can support our troops. Even if you do not think we should be in Iraq, you can still support our troops. If we learned anything from Vietnam, we learned not to crap on our troops who were sent to do a dirty job. I agree with most of the Libertarian philosophy, and I am a patriotic American. That is why I am concerned with some of the things that are going on in our government. We can push for changes whilst still being proud Libertarians and proud Americans. Bashing our country is just what the enemy loves to see us do.

The problem is that people take supporting our troops as supporting the war and supporting Bush. I don't remember anyone on here saying that the troops are bad. If i remember correctly, almost everyone on here wants to bring them home so they don't have to do Bush's dirty work.

I have to ask if any LP bloggers have a life or a job? So much useless spew this is why the rest of the US writes us off as a joke.

Posted by: freedom at August 9, 2005 11:10 PM

TerryAsks:

Hey, do YOU 'have a life or a job' and was that above 'spew' of your actually not also 'useless' :)

Freedom, over what would you INITIATE, or do a credible threat to initiate, physical assault upon the person or justly held possessions of another?

Envision UNIVERSAL Libertarianism!
at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/39808

TO FREEDOM, YOU KNOW IT NICE TO SEE WHAT views are shared on here, you might learn something and most of us have jobs, we are working for the governement paying our TAXES.

TO FREEDOM! FURTHERMORE who may be thinking who's an idiot when those same people that you think write us off is the same people who put certain people in office and guess what, we got socialism.

FOR FREEDOM, you always say the most with so few words (and with such horrible grammar).

No Name, Posted by: at August 10, 2005 12:35 PM

Small minds notice things like bad grammer.

When us "big minded" people read posts and can barely understand what the poster is trying to say, we tend to notice the bad grammar. I'm not saying FOR FREEDOM or anyone else with bad grammar is "small minded," I'm just stating a fact. When I can understand what FOR FREEDOM is saying, I tend to agree. I don't understand, though, how "small minded" people can notice bad grammar, but it tends to distract people from the point of the post.

I apologize to you, FOR FREEDOM.

Paul P writes:

"You can find otu more at fairtax.org , or look up HR 25.

Yes, federal property taxes would be gone, though you might still have some state and county taxes. The sales tax is something I was very skeptical of at first, but the more I read about it, the more everything clicked into place. Neal Boortz actually wrote a book on it that came out this week."

Federal property taxes??

What country are you living in, Paul.

As for the Fair Tax - this is the biggest pile of crap ever. It is revenue neutral at 23% plus you still pay local and state sales taxes. It also applies to services which aren't taxed in many jurisdictions. The Fair Tax is supposed to eliminate the IRS but it actually creates a larger and more intrusive reporting agency.

The socialist rub comes with monthly checks sent by the government as advance rebate checks to every household. You must report wages and personal family information to the government so they can decide the amount of the rebate.

Of course, the government would never be unfair about rebates and select certain groups who deserve larger rebates or no rebates. Ha ha.

It used to be libertarians wanted smaller government. Now it seems many libertarians can't tell the difference between a libertarian and a warmongering, Bush supporting, talk radio entertainer who panders to idiot right-wingers.

Maybe after the Fair Tax, libertarians will support Fair Universal Health Care, The Fair Draft, and Fair Sentencing For Victimless Crimes.

Posted by Tom Blanton August 10,2005 10:29PM:

"It used to be libertarians wanted smaller government. Now it seems many libertarians can't tell the difference between a libertarian and a warmongering, Bush supporting, talk radio entertainer who panders to idiot right-wingers

Maybe after the Fair Tax, libertarians will support Fair Universal Health Care, The Fair Draft, and Fair Sentencing For Victimless Crimes."

Could this perhaps be the philosophical unraveling initiated by the i.e.s.???

After all, people who enthusiastically support foreign aid, a description i.e.s. supporters have no basis for denying, are hardly on firm ground for opposing other, more benign, socialist boondoggles.

All in favor of spreading African style poverty northeastward say i.e.s!!!

This is a different Paul P. speaking.

I have a few very different perspectives from most of the posters here. For beginners, I grew up in London and hung out with Marc as a teenager. So, I know something of his background, of the reasons why Canadians are defensive and protesters are up in arms, and why the rest of the world loathes the long arm of the U.S. (I have lived in the US for 12 years, so I think I understand both sides point of view.

First of all, I find it somewhat interesting that no one here has noted Marc's libertarian party affiliation. He and I and another good friend were the original 3 card carrying members of the Libertarian party in Canada. He ran for election back in the seventies, or maybe the early eighties, I think as a teenager (about the time he was taking over as the owner of City Lights Bookstore). Although he later left the official party (a lot of people who identify themselves as Libertarian are nutty, and not willing to actually live their principles as Marc does) he has very strong libertarian ideals.

Marc is extraordinarily intelligent, entrepreneurial anti-authoritarian, and a strong defender of individual rights and liberty. I suspect the reason he originally got involved in selling marijuana was because he thought it was ridiculous that he couldn't, and he did it openly to make a point.

Although selling, growing and smoking marijuana is indeed a crime in Canada, it has always been treated differently than it is in the US. The police used to prosecute more vigorously in the 70s and 80s, but Canadians in general are quite a bit more socially libertarian, and there was not a lot of community support for locking up non-violent offenders who were (at worst) only hurting themselves. Much of the changing Canadian attitude over the years can be credited to Marc's high profile campaign to shine a light on nonsensical rules - most of us would concede that cigarettes and alcohol do more societal damage and they are perfectly legal (as they should be in a free country).

Marc has been arrested many times, but the police finally gave up, because a) public opinion did not support it and b) at worst, he got a light hand-slap and was back to selling his seeds the next day. Even with the laws in place, social attitudes have changed sufficiently that it isn't considered much worse than getting a speeding ticket for going 5 miles over the limit. So, technically, they could arrest him under Canadian law, but they wouldn't (and haven't) - they are only honoring a US request for arrest and extradiction as international treaties permit.

The question we must ask, however, is whether the US has any jurisdiction. And, this gets to the crux of why the rest of the world views America with distrust and disgust. Only in America do we have the arrogance to believe that we can make laws which apply to everyone anywhere in the world and that we have the right to enforce them. It is arrogance that breeds contempt, not whether or not the laws are right or wrong.

Put the shoe on the other foot for a second. Muslims consider it sinful to drink. Their theocratic societies and laws demand harsh penalties. Americans get bent of out shape about being criminally prosecuted in Saudi Arabia for drinking. They get similarly bent out of shape when a kid is caned in Singapore for vandalizing cars - a legitimate penalty for breaking Singapore's law in Singapore.

How bent out of shape would we be if foreign nationals came to the US and insisted that we enforce Saudi or Singapore law on our soil? No other country would be so presumptuous, and we wouldn't tolerate it. In fact, that is a big part of what the terrorists that we fear so much are trying to do is enforce their interpretation of religious laws on us and exact punishment. We reject that line of thought as ridiculous - those aren't our standards or laws or beliefs, and we feel quite justified in fighting back, even declaring war on sovereign countries that weren't directly involved in attacks on us.

So why is it right to arrest a Canadian for mailing seeds across the border? If Canadian authorities want to arrest him for misuse of the mail, or for openly selling illegal drugs, that's up to them; but, what right do Americans have to arrest Marc?

We certainly have the right to intercept contraband at the border. We have the right to arrest Americans who ordered the seeds for breaking American law. But, the US has no right to extend its juridiction into foreign territories that have differing laws and standards. Perhaps use of extradition treaties in murder, rape, violent assault and other such cases makes sense, but for mailing seeds to US addresses? If Marc was on US soil and breaking US law, that would be one thing, but he was at a conference in Nova Scotia, which last time I checked was still part of Canada.

So, yes, this is exactly why the rest of the world hates America. Don't get defensive about it. A healthy libertarian (and internationally respectful) attitude would be to worry about your own business and keep your nose out of everyone elses. That's why libertarians in the US should not only support Marc morally, but they should protest to their own government about burning bridges with people who would otherwise be their best friends.

As an expat Canadian, I can say strongly and affirmatively that there is lots to like about the US. However, as a Canadian, I can also tell you about the insecurity that country feels being one tenth the size of its next door neighbor, with the longest open border in the world, and very much dependent on the good graces of the US government for its economic well-being. Any time some protectionist US interest sneezes, Canada get pneumonia.

Moreover, its neighbor happens to be the only remaining superpower (although China seems well on its way to catching up), and inclined to militarism and willing to make laws and enforce them anywhere in the world. You would be crazy not to be fearful, insecure, defensive and a little bit angry about that. Of course, the average US citizen doesn't view themself this way - you're a big, friendly, gregarious people who are open and free and wish that for everyone, right? At least that's the mythology, but it isn't the way others see you. And, the negatives that others see are reinforced everytime an idiot agency like the DEA goes and busts a Canadian on Canadian soil for doing something that Canadians don't care about.

Why do they hate us!
They don't, not individually. (Excluding Muslim extreanists) - When surveys are taken, people can only respond to what they know. That is what their media says about what our government is doing or blamed for doing and how unfair it is to them. That makes a good news story and boosts sales. Not very different than what is available to us. Individually U.S. citizens are very well recieved as evidenced by personal experiance and millions of tourists that travel the world. Most want to want to know our opinion of them their nation and culture. Best results are realized if one treats all others with respect.

Mr. Stockman:

I wish I could say you are right. Perhaps you are, in that 'hate' is a fairly strong, nearly absolute emotion. I would concede that the 'hate' premise isn't quite right, and probably even Muslim extremists don't hate you since they don't know you personally.

However, it would not be incorrect to say resent. The rest of the world definitely resents American arrogance and ignorance of what goes on outside their borders.

They don't like that a relatively small percentage of the world's population uses 86% of its resources (no value judgment here - we also produce more and create wealth, but they resent that nonetheless). They resent that Americans generally don't respect cultures that are different from their own. And, they resent American power (economic and otherwise) and militaristic tendencies. And, trust me, as a Canadian, I can tell you absolutely that there is strong resentment of American (government) interference in foreign countries.

Go look at the blogs about Marc Emery emanating out of Canada right now. People that strongly disagree with his grandstanding and flagrant thumbing-his-nose at the law absolutely are on his side when it comes to fighting extradiction to stand trial in an American court for things he did in Canada that Canadians just don't think are a big deal.

For example, there is a law professor who Marc has attacked privately who feels strongly enough about this that I'd wager he'd be willing to offer pro bono assistance. ( http://www.simonpole.ca/node/202 ) Wouldn't you resent it if your next door neighbor asserted that he had a right to tell you how to behave in your home? It just isn't any different. Police activity as you see fit on your own territory (whether libertarians agree with government policy in the US is a moot point), but leave other countries alone to mind their own business.

Resentment is a long-term smoldering kind of emotion that is far more damaging than hate.

Paul:

Of course you are correct, hate is an emotionally charged word overused in current political discourse. I have met actual breathing people who claim they hate George Bush, a man they have seen on TV and but met. They sound like they mean it too! I suppose because their side lost they have too much emotion invested to accept the covenant between citizens in a democratic nation that allows us to peacefully change governments. My mom used to get that upset when the Dallas Cowboys were on the wrong end of a bad call. That is, if the officials call was bad it was ok unless it was against her team. Sounds like people and politics. Go figure!

Sure "Resent", really is a better choice when discussing international U.S. image. Much of the world does envy and resent the U.S.. Considering the deplomatic, economic and military power that could be brought to bear, one could suppose that is expected. But notice that when an nations economy is not working, their politicians often blame external forces (U.S) to avoid responsibility and there is not much we can do about that. It takes an educated and informed population to see through that tactic. Immigration suggests our the reality of no where close to what, in attempts to influence foreign policy, our media publishes. One could hope the old agenda driven media will be less of a force in public opinion with the rise of the new media.

When visiting a foreign country, except for France, my experience suggests a very strong interest in how Americans view the people and culture of that country. Governments, make decisions based on self interest. There is a lot of griping going on. Surely you don't expect Canada to compromise its self interests for England. Canadians elected a government to watch out for Canadian interests and we did the same. Each negoiates their own trade deals under internal political pressures. (Canadian Cattle imports for example)

The U.S survived the cold war leaving it as the worlds superpower and there is no near peer in sight. However do you know any other nation you world prefer as your neighbor. Canada is our largest economic partner, we share the largest undefended border in the world, we share a common language, common history, common culture and have differences not much different that we have with our selves. We have much more in common we have in differences.

People that annoy me most, live by Murphy's law. To paraphrase: "No matter what is done it will go wrong at the worst possible moment, create the worst possible result and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that." Doesn't fit Marc, seems he did just about everything necessary to bring about the present result. Seems like he expected others to ignore the commercial enterprise he knew was illegal or expected to benefit from the notoriety if charged.

Their is no country I know of that intentionally allows the importation of illegal substances. While countries differ in what those substances may be, is not true for Canada and the US. I believe according to Canadian law it is illegal to export Pot seeds and according to US laws it is illegal to import Pot seeds into the US. An extradition treaty exists between these nations. Accordingly Marc, a U.S. Citizen was charged with a U.S. crime while in Canada and will be extradited to face criminal charges in a U.S. court. Canada has not yet chosen to enforce its export ban but the U.S. has chosen to enforce its import ban. Both Canadian and U.S. law enforcement are tasked to enforce their laws so I do not under stand the complaint about the U.S. or how what his defense could be.

How that translates into the U.S. telling Canada what to do misses me. So where did I go wrong? Please enumerate!

Why are we debating the word hate? This is the type of banter that gets this country nowhere, we get preoccupied in frivolous nothings and completely forget what really matters. Instead of arguing semantics, look at the real issue. Many countries hate us, not just the Middle East. Rather than assume that they have no reason to dislike us, look for the reasons why. Many have been discussed here, like our intervention policies, but one main reason is that we are pompous ***holes. We are arrogant, we think we rule the world, we think the world revolves around us. Any WHY are we arrogant? The reason is quite simple, Christian tradition. Christians make themselves out to be the victims in EVERYTHING. "THE WORLD HATES US, WE DID NOTHING WRONG, WE WERE BEING GOOD CHRISTIANS...WAIT, THEY MUST NOT LIKE US BECAUSE WE'RE CHRISTIAN!!" That bull****! Muslims don't hate us because we're Christian, or a Republic, they hate us for the same reason the rest of the world hates us, because we're up in everyone else's grill!

Hail the Monroe Doctrine!

Josh:

The subject Shane set up was "why they hate us!" Speaking of every peoples of the world. My contacts indicate, except for Islamifacists, they really don't. They do resent the power this country brings to the world and some of the influence of our pop culture has on theirs. There is a profound diffence between the opinion of individuals toward other individuals and their government.

If one even cares to identify a reason terrorists take direct action to drive western influence from the middle east, (they think it is their land) one only need listen to what they say. The west is a decadent, and corrupt land of non-believers and that is sufficient reason to kill every infidel. Their religion directs them to convert the world or kill the non believers and they take that charge in its most literal sense.

Americans don't need to be liked but do need economic exchange with rest of the world and they need the same from us. I really don't care much if other governments like us or not. I do care if they respect us for our strengths in cultural, ethical, moral, economic, diplomatic, judicial and military matters. The US is the only business environment I worked in where bribery was not an accepted part of doing business.