I guess if your church argues in favor of the War in Iraq that it doesn't risk its non-profit standing, right?

Lunacy.

During the presidental ellection weren't there a couple of preachers who said something like if you don't vote for bush you'll burn in hell?

I severely doubt that, though I am sure there were some who gave him a hearty endorsement. The closest thing to what you're describing was a Catholic priest who refused to serve John Kerry communion based on a religious tenant(and if you can't take holy communion, you basically go to hell in Catholocism, I believe).

Contributions to a church are tax deductible while those to the LP aren't. If a church wants to start making political instead of religious statements, then it should be treated like the LP
(or vice versa).

Creech...Absolutely. I think the point the article is making, among many, is whether or not it was politically motivated. Do we see churches that are pro-Bush getting this much focus?

Wait, are you sure contributions to a church are tax deductible? I don't think they are. Contributions to a religous or church charity like UMCOR are deductible, but not what you put in the coffers every Sunday to pay for things like the building fund, youth group trips, and preacher's salary.

If a church is pushing people to vote for Karl Marx, but their charity isn't, and only distributes money, services, and goods, donations to the charity should still be deductible.

While I do not agree with those churches and religions that are taking an anti-war stand when it comes to Iraq and the overall War On Terror, I do agree with what Martin Luther King stated many years ago. That the church is "the conscience of the state." What that means is when the state commits error,when the state screws up, it is up to the churches and its members to raise their voices and say so. No church, whatever they may preach or speak out for or against, should have their voices stifed by government, a special interest group or whatever or whomever.

Paul: Benders 2005 Tax Return Manual: "Only
contributions to qualified organizations are deductible. Examples of deductible organizations include churches, synagogues and other religious organizations."

Its a sad day when the church can't preach peace! What is there to say about a country that'so paranoid because of it's dirty history and foriegn policies. The powers that be must dictate what being said and how. Otherwise you have no dictatorship.

This is a message for the Liberals who embrace homosexuality and same sex marriage: God NEVER intended for a man to put his PENIS inside another man's ANUS! It is PERVERTED & NASTY!

I find it quite ironic that all these so-called conservative Christians call themselves "Pro-Life"
when the church's history proves otherwise. Don't believe me, try reading www.no-god.com and the American Atheists website (http://www.atheists.org) and they pretty much explain why.

Wayne: ...and it's also none of your business.

Paul P: yes, contributions to churches are tax deductible. They count as charities. The person claiming the deduction must have the same kind of documentation that would be required for a donation to the Red Cross, for example.

Why has on one mentioned the First Amendment to the Constitution? A preacher is a citizen and protected by that amendment like the rest of us. Political parties, who receive donations and do not pay taxes, express their views on war and peace constantly.

The government has no right to punish a church or its preacher for expressing views on the war in Iraq.It is,indeed,a very sad day when a churh cannot preach peace without the goverment taking offense.Yes,where is the First Amendment in this?What is happening to this country when a church can no longer be a church without the government's interferance?

This just goes to show you how far the bush administration is prepared to go to stop public protest against his war and human slaughter. The internal revenue service is another arm of our corrupt government that is used to keep dissenters in line. What this government refuses to understand is the fact that the constitution and bill of rights provides the guidance by which we live. NOT CONGRESS, NOT THE PRESIDENT AND NOT THE SUPREME COURT. If america ever gets a backbone and fights this governments attempt to destroy freedom in this country, we can stop these communists dead in their tracks. What the IRS is doing in this case is a blatant attack on FREE SPEECH. It is a violation of the church's right to opinion. It is breaking our laws against government corruption and intimidation.

also CREECH, a church who makes a statement pertaining to peace is not making a political statement, its a statement promoting peace. On the other hand, when the government uses its heavy hand to silence free speech, it's called COMMUNISM.

I may not agree with the premise of the sermon but I do agree with the concern over the IRS. The problem is not what a preacher preaches but the problem is the mechanism whereby the government can control what the preacher preaches,IE the 501c3. No man of God should ever allow himself to be controlled by a 501c3. If he does, He's not a man of God!!!!

This is truly unfortunate. Guess you better get you doctorine screened by the government now.

How many more rights and freedoms must we sacrifice before people open thier eyes and stand up for our Country our fore fathers created. Bush is our president, when is war every good? Why would the irs worry about some church. Somthing doesn't add up.

What about Cardinal Roger Mahoney. He is more political then that stupid mayor LA has. The IRS will not mess with the Popes people.

The power to tax is the power to silence. Just think about that. This is proof.

Also, while I disagree with what's being said, I am totally in favor of the right to say it. In fact, I will defend it to my death.

While technnically they haven't been fully censored, the mere act of punishing someone for their views reeks of unconstitutional censorship.

I think the reason they can get away with this is that faith based funding bill. I haven't read it fully through, but I think it says that you lose tax exempt status if you espouse political views or endorse any candidate. However, I am unsure.

Does anybody have a link to the text of said document, and can either confirm or deny the truth to what I said?

Christ was for peace (but not at any price!) Who believes He would have condoned the genocide by Sadam Hussein in Iraq? Do you call it peace to have hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed by him so he could be in control? Where would we be today if the peace-mongers had been in control after Pearl Harbor? Thank God that there comes a time when its right to fight, even if no WMD's were found. Why do these same people condone taking LIFE from babies in the womb?

This country is in trouble, as it was during the McCarthy witch hunts. The priest has the right to express his views(1st amendment). If the IRS penalizes this church, they also need to go after the evangelacal christian churches who told their congregation to vote for Bush.

Our Constitution is designed to promote principles before personalities, and equal rights regardless of race, creed or religion or lack of religion. This administration is more like an oligarchy that his to sick the hounds on perceived dissenters.

Is it acceptable to receive a phony bill from the IRS just because someone does not like you? If this church gets audited, the citizens of this country must stand up for the principle of the audit, not what the priest said. Otherwise, we might as well surrender our rights, and accept whatever government highway robber comes our way.

The government has a right to punish a church or its preacher for expressing views on the war in Iraq. It is the right for the Church to Preach about God and stay out of the Goverment's Business........ Personally,I do not like War, but I will Support the President of the United States and our Military in the Decisions that are made. I am full blooded American and Support my Country and Military 100% and more. If you can't support your President and Military, I do think you should pack your Bags and move to another Country.

Thats the lamest flame I've ever seen, but I'll bite anyways, just to vent.

You are at best a half breed american. No real american would ever tolerate the government "punishing" freedom of speech.

I think you should pack your bags and move to a authoritarian country where they dont have actual freedom of any sort and see how you like your personal freedom of speech taken away for your views. You would have been right at home in the old Soviet Union, or maybe fascist Italy circa 1939.

I also notice you didnt have the courage of your convictions to sign your name to your post. Why are you even here? You should be over at rnc.com where the Bush lovers are, not here.

It will be my pleasure to do what I can do to make sure that a bum like Bush never gets elected again, and hopefully I'll see the day when both the R;s and the D's are minor parties.

Message to Wayne: I received your angry and offensive email, but when I tried to write back, I got an error from AOL saying that your email address was invalid. Perhaps you'd care to try again with a valid address?

Matthew Finnigan: What "faith based funding bill" are you talking about?

I'll bite too...

"I am full blooded American and Support my Country and Military 100% and more. If you can't support your President and Military, I do think you should pack your Bags and move to another Country."

So, join me on a trip to Obvious-results-of-blind-obedience-by-the-masses Land...

Do you recall a man by the name of Adolf Hitler who was the elected leader of his country?

Why exactly are churches tax exempt?

By giving religious organizations tax exempt status, isn't the government promoting religion?

This tax exempt status is what demarcation line between what is considered a religion and what is considered a cult. To me there is no fundamental difference between the Church of Latter Day Saints and the Church of Elvis. And yet, the Mormons church is afforded tax exempt and the Elvisites aren't.

PS

To paul p. Catholics don't go to hell if they don?t receive communion. All you need to get into heaven is god?s saving grace which he gave freely to the world by sacrificing his only son. (That what I learned in my 12 years of Catholic schooling)

Why do my apostrophes turn into question marks?

Actually, Johnny, we should ALL have tax-exempt status!!

Don't worry Libertarian TV. I'm guessing wayne cooper is just a troll. You get idiots like that on most websites.

Was there some kind of major link to the LP website recently? The crazies seem to be coming out of the woodwork.

first to paul: I found this article on the earthlink home page, so that could be the problem.

okay: being from pasadena, I am very familiar with all saints church and george regis. this is a church that really cares about the community.they have programs helping the homeless as well as people living with AIDS. to take away their 501c3 status would affect a lot of people who get help from the church. and I am pretty sure if george regis said something like "jesus supports this war mr. bush, and we support you too," we wouldn't be hearing about this at all.

The government can't mention god, but the church can mention the government?

A square isn't a rectangle, but a rectangle IS a square.

What does this mean?
Don't know, just speaking freely.

to the previous post: what do you mean the government can't mention god? it seems to me that religion is being blatantly forced down our throats by the person currently occupying the white house....

Mr. Wayne Cooper: How do you know what god wants? Did god intend us to use microwaves and automobiles? Is that in the Bible too? Is that natural? There are homosexual animals...should THEY read the bible too? I'll have to carry one to my African safari and give a bible to the monkeys so they know not to engage in homosexual behaviour anymore. I guess all the homo animals are going to hell too. I think our forebearers intended the government to tell its citizens what to do in their bedrooms...so much for freedom!

bagpipe johnny, you hit the nail on the head. Tax-exempt status for only select religious organizations is fundamentally a government endorsement of that organization's views, which is a violation of the establishment clause.

Additionally, tax-exemption for churches & deductions for charitable donations are added complications (and therefore inefficiencies) in the tax code, and actually makes everyone pay more in taxes to support the bloated IRS. Deductions are the meant to encourage some particular type of behavior, which is blatant social engineering and none of the government's business.

The IRS action may have more to do with their desire for money and less to do with the politics of the church.

The IRS sees a non-political organization making strong political statements and envisions an opportunity to reclassify it so that taxes can be collected.

Not enough info is present in the blog for a fair-minded person to draw a conclusion. I'd like to hear the IRS/legal side of it as well. I'll bet there's a lot more to this than just "the IRS doesn't like anti-war statements."

1. Thanks to the fellow who spoke up about supporting our troops and our President. There are a lot of people out there that hold similar views. While I have great appreciation for our troops (my family has a long history of US military service), I believe those that I care about deserve my constructive comments. Do you love your children? Have you never chastized your own child for inappropriate behavior?.

2. Folks, c'mon. If you can't handle a dissenting voice on a libertarian web site... Someone disagrees with you and you want to throw him out of the country? No wonder the LP only has a party membership of less than one tenth of one percent of the country's population. I know, I know. You were just responding in kind. But still...

Another Matt: I agree with you about Wayne. I was hoping I could goad him into giving me his real email address instead of a fake address. I wanted to challenge him directly on his religious beliefs. I don't think I could have pushed him toward liberty. Only he can make that decision. I merely wanted to privately show him that he is violating his own beliefs, because I'll bet my bottom dollar he believes in a literal understanding of the Bible.

Scott, he is *NOT* my president. Please don’t refer to him as "our" president because he doesn’t represent me or anyone I know. No majority, no authority. Not elected, not my president.

I am a long standing member of the LP and a pastor of a church. I and my congregation are looking over our shoulders after this recent story came to light. It is bad enough when local churches attack other local churches (which happens often to us) but when peace cannot be preached and the pulpit is nothing but a goverment mouthpeice the church can no longer be the church.

Also, please everyone accept my apologies for the remarks of wayne. He does not speak for a great majority of those who practice christian sprituality and he most certainly does not speak for a good, loving and merciful God.

A look at history will show that a lot of churches preached some pretty political sermons around, say, the 1770s. And they were for freedom. I don't think the church should run the government. I don't think the government should run the church. But the Founding Fathers never intended that the government should hesitate to speak the name of God. They never intended that churches should feel vulnerable for standing up for what they believe in culturally. As far as tax exemption for churches...didn't that just start in the 60s?

bush = omen

Jesus Is an Anarchist
(A free-market/libertarian anarchist, that is--otherwise what is called an anarcho-capitalist.)

by James Redford

full article at

http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html

(updated version: http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.html)

The above title may seem like strong words, for surely that can't be correct? Jesus an anarchist? One must be joking, right?

But you read correctly, and I will demonstrate exactly that. At this point you may be incredulous, but I assure you that I am quite serious. If you are a Christian and find the above title at all hard to believe then you of all people owe it to yourself to find out what the basis of this charge is, for if the above comes as news to you then you still have much to learn about Jesus and about the most vitally important struggle which has plagued mankind since the dawn of history: mankind's continuing struggle between freedom and slavery, between value producers and the violent parasitical elite, between peace and war, between truth and deception. This is the central struggle which defines mankind's history and, sadly, continues to do so.

liberty-lovin' conserative

While I could be wrong, I think Church's are considereed as non profit organizations (do not charge services and survive with donations from members time and capital) Their tax exemption status falls under a catagory similar to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and the United Way.

Posted by: at November 10, 2005 09:53 PM

This just goes to show you how far the bush administration is prepared to go to stop public protest against his war and human slaughter. The internal revenue service is another arm of our corrupt government that is used to keep dissenters in line. What this government refuses to understand is the fact that the constitution and bill of rights provides the guidance by which we live. NOT CONGRESS, NOT THE PRESIDENT AND NOT THE SUPREME COURT. If america ever gets a backbone and fights this governments attempt to destroy freedom in this country, we can stop these communists dead in their tracks. What the IRS is doing in this case is a blatant attack on FREE SPEECH. It is a violation of the church's right to opinion. It is breaking our laws against government corruption and intimidation.

also CREECH, a church who makes a statement pertaining to peace is not making a political statement, its a statement promoting peace. On the other hand, when the government uses its heavy hand to silence free speech, it's called COMMUNISM.

"COMMUNISUM is an economic system, as are Facists, National Socialists "NAZI", Socialists, and Capitalists. - Authoritrian and totalitarian, or dictorial may better fit your complaints. Frankly, I can't think of a better forum than a place of spritial worship to speak against violence. It is up to the attendent decide as to the practical behaviour in the physical world."