Wonder how many libertarians are on a similar list?

They can tap my phone, read my overseas mail, hack my computer at will....I guess they can put anyone on a no-fly list too.

Hmmmm....all the delegates to National get put on no -fly list.....convention breaks like egg yolk...hmmmmm

I'd like to know what the outcome of this is?

Critical voices and children must be kept out of the air!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060105/ap_on_re_us/terror_list_preschooler_1

THIS is one step away from NAZI GERMANY

Let's all register for delegates under assumed names. It wouldn't be the first time I gave the cops an assumed name when all I was doing was exercising 1st amendment rights.

Has this went to the News Media, ok time to get everyone involved. Freedomworks.com Freestarmedia.com ACLU website, Freestateproject.com Any other sites we should be aware of?

There needs to be some kind of grievance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x57078

This is very serious regarding the no fly

Great! (sarcastically)

Everyone with names of former high government officials is on it, because apparently they use those names...my father is on it because he has the same name as some random secretary o' something for somebody did.

Before you know it someone in the White House will be compiling an "enemies list" and using the IRS to harass their "enemies". Sort of has a familiar ring to it doesn't it?

What's past is prologue, welcome to Amerika. The date of our Reichstag fire? 9/11/01.

Comparing this to Nazi Germany is the type of thing that turns me off to the Libertarian Party.

Muslim terrorists attacked innocent people, the government responds. The program is corrupt and incompetent, yes. However, one instance of corruption from a program designed to protect people is a bit different then slaughting millions of citizens in concentration camps. At least in my opinion. Even the worst things Bush has done are less then what FDR did. Indeed, spying on people without warrents, locking the Japanese in camps, Bush is largly just following the legal precedent already in place. And FDR is still a long way from Hitler, who banned all guns. Virtually every government on the planet is worse then ours. The only ones I can think of that's probably better is Switzerland and a couple European others, and even there you're forced to work like a slave for 20-ish of your life to pay for other people's self-inflicted health care problems.

We have a corruption problem, and the solution is term limits for Congressmen. This would cause them to be independent of party and hold the president more accountable. The problem is figuring out how to get term limits in the Constitution.

This is a strange. Whatever one thinks of George W. Bush, he does allow journalists who are critical of him on matters of public policy at press confrences. He always allows columnist Helen Thomas to sit in front during those proceedings including others from Cox News Service, CNN, ABC, NBC, the New York Times and others. To ban James Moore is very much a departure from that.

I believe an apology is in order. President Bush should meet with James Moore and personally make amends to him. It would be the honorable thing to do.

With the usurptions of power and the new wall going up.I wouldnt think this is so suprising.Hmm a good question would be who has the contracts for the oven's.Nazi's and Hitler in particular dealt with his political oposition very harshly but of course we understand now as the root in most ethnic cleansing is a scape goat to a very simple motive.Your right Tom to compare this to Nazi's would be unfair to Stalin he deserves credit.

This type of tyranny remains relitively unexplored or unemphisised in School but is far worse.You must only speak in discourse or want to change this politcal animal to be banned from rights.

Instead of being of some ethnic or religous section of society you could be anyone neighbors turn in neighbors.This political animal is nestled warm in it's power it dosnt want to relent and will do what ever it needs to survive.Stalin killed far more people than Hitler for this cause.I don't make this distinction to down play or detract from Hitler's actions.Only to point out the obvious contrast.

Oh yeah the point also if that list has names for no fly it surely could be expanded.

With magnetometer screening of passengers, x-ray screening of carry-on baggage, reinforced cockpit doors, some pilots packing heat, some flights having armed air marshals, and most of all the public having knowledge of what happened on the fourth hijacking attempt on September 11, 2001 ("Let's Roll!"), why is there even a no-fly list in the first place, especially with no reasonable mechanism to correct errors or determine reasons for inclusion?

The biggest areas without adequate security are passenger checked-in baggage and commercial cargo. Access to secured areas of airports is also imperfectly controlled. Reasonable detection of explosives is probably the biggest hurdle to overcome.

The no-fly list appears to be simply an attempt to extend federal government control of the general public and to hassle government critics, catching and inconveniencing many innocents in the process (sound familiar?).

Often times, President Bush gets testy and seems to be on the verge of calling someone a traitor because they oppose his policies.

That is why I call all Bush backers "SUPER-PATRIOTS" becuase these people really do believe that agreement with the President's policy makes them a better american than me or thee. I'm going to do another video with them in mind at some point lampooning them and their disgusting attitude.

We must consider that the primary purpose for all intrusions and restrictions by the Statist powers is control. The ability of a government to control it's people is the foundation and fodder for it's consolidation of power and authoritarianism. We would prefer to think that our government is our friend, that it is on our side however, that is not the case...in the end, we shall all be either Enemies of The State or collaborators!

Oh, by the way, I feel that the comparison of Nazi Germany is appropriate only to the extent that Hitler used the fears of the people to nullify the German Constitution and assume complete control over the nation and it's people. If you research the propaganda that was issued in Pre-Nazi controlled Germany by Hitler and his Brown-shirts, you will find a very striking resemblance to what we are now hearing from this government. Not only are the words the same, but many of the actions that are now being taken by our government are extremely similar to those taken by the Nazis when they finally assumed power in Germany. In Germany, the people gladly gave up their Freedom for Hitler's Security, and the result was devastating.
That said, do I think this government will be as extremist in it's version of Totalitarianism? The answer is: I don't know, but what I do know is that a modern Governmental Corporate Fascism is spreading it's tentacles over this nation, using the fear of terrorism to accomplish it's power grab and whatever the outcome it will not be in favor of the People, or the Bill of Rights.

Let's take it even further from a historical viewpoint. One primary step in the road to Totalitarianism is being able to track the movements of the Citizens. Assuming that the system of checks we have at airports is essentially a bromide in terms of ACTUAL security. And as a professional "security" expert with over 30 years in the business, I can tell you it is. How long do you think it will be before these Draconian measures will be introduced to travel by bus, train, ship in fact all common carriers? How long after that before you need some sort of visa before you can visit Aunt Martha in a neighboring state? Remember the FEDERAL highway system?

You think comparison to Nazi Germany is out of line? Let's see. All tyrants throughout history, be they Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Fidel Castro, etc operate out of a basic playbook for tyrants consisting of Five basic steps:

Step 1. Eliminate or render impotent the Legislative process.

Is there, or is there not a power grab going on right now from the Executive Branch? Congress has already neglected its Constitutional duties in so many ways it is becoming hard to count. For example, there is a great cry from the Democrats right now about Judge Alito's views to the Executive War Powers Act. According to the CONSTITUTION, only CONGRESS has the power to declare war. EVEN F.D.R. knew and respected that! They could propose and pass legislation repealing that act any time they want. Congress, preferring blame to be shifted to the President should a war go badly, rejected its Constitutional duty. And we keep electing these spineless bastards.

After the destruction of the Reichstag, which Hitler blamed on the Communists, he pushed through the legislature the "Enabling Act" without actually abrogating the Weimar Constitution. The Enabling Act allowed vastly expanded executive powers to circumvent that constitution. The way Congress fast tracked the “Patriot Act” can be viewed in parallel.

Step 2. Destroy Federalism.

Does anybody remember the 10th Amendment? In was included in the constitution to PREVENT tyranny by granting states ALL the power not specifically given to the Federal. Although we haven’t gone as far as Adolph and actually eliminated State governments, they have been rendered somewhat impotent enough. The Feds have by their words and deeds, made it fairly plain to the states that what they think doesn’t matter and as long as the feed from the federal money tree, the Fed’s will make the rules.

The Neocons, like Adolph, understand that the states exercising their constitutionally granted powers will only inhibit the desired outcome – absolute centralized control. In our case, we can thank Abe Lincoln for this – the FIRST Republican President.

Step 3. Create an Enemy and Declare “Homeland Security”

Hitler’s “boogey-men” were primarily Communists and the Jews. He blamed the burning of the Reichstag on the Communists, although it was actually carried out by Ernest Rohm, leader of the Brown Shirts at Hitler’s specific request. Hitler later had him assassinated so he couldn’t later talk. He also blamed Rohm’s assassination on the Communists and made him a Nazi martyr. Our boogiemen for the moment are Islamic extremists on a Jihad against the free world and anyone we declare to be their “fellow travelers”. Whether you believe the story of 9/11 or not is irrelevant, they are it officially. Hitler declared as German Chancellor, he would protect the Fatherland. He called his program “Fatherland Security”, now in his case he simply eliminated liberties such as freedom of speech , press, assembly AND travel. The Neocons, through Dubya created the “Department of HOMELAND Security” and while not unilaterally shutting down the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, no one can argue that they have not been somewhat “sodomized”, with the rape increasing in intensity each and every day. Hitler, at first, branded dissenters as traitors and soft on terrorism. Sound familiar? He later employed more direct and Draconian methods. Hitler’s propaganda director was one fellow named Heinrich Himmler, we have whole networks of them with names like Rush who joke about “Club Gitmo”. That is our internment camp Mr. Swift.

Step 4. Nationalize the Police Force and Establish Secret and Military Style Police.

The recent Hurricane disasters were an excuse to declare Martial Law and use our Military as Police in violation of U.S. Law. Dubya mentioned again in the event of a “bird flu” epidemic. Congress is now contemplating a uniformed division of the Secret Service (I.C.E.). N.S.A. doing domestic spying on American Citizens while the pundits make excuses for it.

Hitler had his Gestapo; Stalin had the KGB (then G.R.U.).

Step 5. Disarm the People.

This trial balloon was floated during Hurricane Katrina when the Feds and local police confiscated the weapons of the law abiding citizens of New Orleans in direct violation of the 2nd Amendment. Think it won’t happen again?

Conclusions – Draw your own.

Yeah I was only thinking in the context of the final solution versus comunist Russia.But yeah CMMC,there is a parallel between Hitlers propaganda machine.As you mentioned the people gladly gave up their constituion in favor of Hitler in blind patriotism.No one can answer how far this will go or how far we will let it go.I can say this we know people are languishing in prisons through out the U.S. and abroad being alive and caged in my opion is worse than death.Killing people for their veiws and such is the final stage of dictorship it just means that it is way too late to change the government back without force.One huge argument to bring back government to it's constituional restrictions is the love of our country and infra structure history has only proven this trend could only end badly with destruction of our stuff either by an outside force or within.

yeah controlling the transportation that's appearent it was the train stations in Germany now it's our air ports same difference.

Chuck,

May I be allowed to add some points to you list?

Step 1. Eliminate or render impotent the Legislative process.

You forgot to mention the Presidents recess appointments bypassing Congressional consent.

Step 4. Nationalize the Police Force and Establish Secret and Military Style Police.

The topic of this post deal with Do-Not-Fly lists. This list is secret from the general public, the criteria for making it onto the list are secret, and the procedures for getting off the list are none-existent

Chuck, great post. Of particular importance is number 3. The government's defense of everything it does is protection from terror. They do it to protect us, and it's unfortunate they have to, but national security is just more important than civil liberty. According to Bush, that's what the American people want. So, the most important thing Libertarians can do is challenge the belief that terrorism creates an imminent threat. During the cold war era, Libertarians challenged the popular belief that the USSR was dangerous to the United States. That's what we have to do now. Make the case that withdrawal from Iraq and from the whole middle east region will make us more secure in the long-run.

You are all free to add as much as you like, it only will help to drive the point home I hope. Let us not also forget the pending spectre of National ID cards and RFID chips. The perversion of technology is also high on the hit parade of tyrants.

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/

Chuck makes a great case for how incremental changes - once championed by the Fabian socialists - enabled Hitler to seize absolute power in Germany. The government of the U.S. could be said to have embarked on the same
course. Why incremental? Because the German people certainly wouldn't have supported the jump to totalitarianism in one fell swoop, just as Americans would not tolerate despotism overnight.
It takes a long time for freedoms to erode with little or no opposition. So, shouldn't it work the other way too? I.E., the American people won't tolerate a jump to individual liberty as proposed by a hard-core LP platform. But they may tolerate gradual steps towards liberty.
We can argue over how big the steps should be
(the proof will be in the electoral results) but
can't we all agree that it should be in steps and
not in one fell swoop?

Creech -

You make a good point. I'm just curious what you would do and in how long would you seek to accomplish it? Plus, what do you think should be done first, then second, then third, etc.?

Put me on the spot, eh, Tommy. I think it all depends on the race being run and the issues at the time. Then, take a position towards freedom that is defendable to at least half the voting public, using "surely this will work" approach and, if it does, "you can consider voting for Libertarian candidates in the future who want to
expand its benefits to you even more." There are, I'm convinced, certain non-compromisable issues - the draft, for instance. But once, say, a draft is in place and supported by a substantial majority of voters for a long time, it might be a good political tactic to then advocate "no draft unless Congress has declared war" as step one back to no draft period.
It gripes me as an old time anarcho-capitalist to
say such things, but if one wants to be in a political party that expects to achieve its views through political action, then one has to be realistic.

the whole government needs to go.it is too late. i am ashamed to be an american much less a human being.from the dishonestly of 9/11 to voter fraud in the last 2 elections proves to the world that the great usa are the biggest threat to civilization.

Chuck, just by way of (small) correction: Himmler headed up the SS. Josef Goebbels was the Propaganda Minister.

I stand corrected, didn't Gobbels also head the Gestapo?

I think Himmler headed that up, too.

Hermann Goering founded the Gestapo, Rudolf Diels was its operational head.

Ah, I stand (well, sit) corrected. So much infamy, such limited brain space. ;)

I must be a hard core Libertarian, because I would just love to have government out of everything. I have been Libertarian now for about 10 years, and this has been the first time I have had the chance to speak with and meet others. Yet as for as I can see, with all that has happened sense 9/11 and some things before then we are lost already. We started going downhill after WWII, and in the last 4 years we are seeing some of the ugly results from the corruption that has been working in secret all these years. It will take a political war to turn this nation back on track. I'm sorry but I just don't see any way around it. We are just to far gone. I also truly beleave that if Bush has his way there will be no knew elections for a new President, not as long as we are at war. I also beleave he will use that little legal claus. I don't think King Bush is going to step down from his throne without a fight. I know that sounds weird, but it's just the way I read him, although my judge of character may not be the best. Boy it sure feels right though, with the way he behaves even in front of the camera's.

This goes to show that Nazism plus Racism plus Communism plus Republicans and Democrats equal the police state.

Mary I agree. I think it was his statement's two of them. I remeber that struck me was, as to how long this war will last.which was indefinatlty, and the last statment on the NSA Spying.That he will continue this policy as long as he is president.Only draws to the conclusion, and his enterpitation of the war powers act being as broad as it is.If allowed to make these assertions, if the first 2 are accepted as true, then last could also be accepted as true.

This is why I said what is past is prologue. This has all been done before, different time, different place EXACT SAME CONDITIONS.

This is why I must respectfully disagree with fellow Libertarians like Creech who advocate diluting our philosophy to make it more attractive to the brain-dead. You can’t be half-free half-slave any more than you can be half-pregnant. If we don’t have the courage not only to live by, but proudly advertise our philosophy of physical, ethical, spiritual, intellectual and financial independence what is the point of banding together to begin with. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Hamilton, etc didn’t “compromise” with the Tories. To paraphrase Ayn Rand "...the only compromise between food and poison is death."

This country is in its death knell as a Republic, high time we faced it, high time we started making so much noise that we try to raise some of these "brain dead" from their tombs of self indulgency.

The airlines are close to bankruptcy now, what would happen do you suppose if a boycott was successfully organized to protest "no fly" lists and this absurd degree of screening?

On the topic of gradually taking freedom back, check out the strategies at:

www.freedom-force.org

For those interested in reforming the platform or the pledge, check out their creed of freedom.

It wouldn't hurt to adopt some of the ideas with potential for success.

The only way to stop those from taking away our liberty is by gaining power. To do that, we must gain support from a greater segment of the populace, gain power and influence, and get elected. Those currenltly in positions of power, in general, are only interested in preserving their positions. Trying to reason with someone that does not care often makes little sense.

Mark on your point your said it brother.I bounce all over the internet and find things all over We The People For constutional education,Irwinn Schiffs site,LEAP.Cultral baggage, All these sites have a libertarian philosphy also. Chuck yeah what you said :)

Chris Thorman:

What IS it with this anti-spam software you use??

I was watching the white house press conference.That happened yesterday questions about Abrahmoff and his relationship with Carl Rowe.The white house press secretary throws out words like Fishing expedition and are certain members of the press making accusations about the white house.The politicians have No protection under the constitution they must be transparent it's is not the peoples burdan to prove wrong doing or show propable cause before these fools answer specific questions.I just think it's totaly assbackward's.

Nazi germany you say, the truth is it is Zionist Marxism and monopolistic corporations that is turning the usa and into a dictatorship.

It's Zionist power behind the neo-cons and the Israeli lobby and everyone knows it.

Potato pothato, a jackboot is a jackboot. Who give's a damn who is wearing it when you are being stomped on?