It's the Tampa Tribune, not the Tampa Bay Tribune. Tampa Bay is a body of water, not a city.

Maybe they mistake the nuns for muslim.

Those nuns in their burkas, no?

I thought that by law you didn't need a Social Security number to open a bank account, even though all banks require it.

By law you don't need a SSN, but just try opening an account without one, believe me it takes jumping through a few hoops, but well worth it in the long run. I think we will see a great deal of this type of thing in the future. In fact, it is my understanding that most banks now have standing orders to assist DHS even to the point of turning over safe deposit boxes, without warrant or any type of court order. DHS Agents are ordered to confiscate any items of value other than personal papers, such as insurance, and other private papers. All other items, including passports, jewelry, money, gold, silver, etc. are ripe for the pickings of the DHS. Welcome to the Brave New World folks...and we've not seen anything yet.
Bless those nuns, I hope they raise so much hell that it's heard throughout the nation and cause the government a huge headache.
Prepare yourselves Citizens, prepare yourselves!

There have been many questions that have been brought forth concerning the Patriot Act and its passage. Many warned that there were the possibilities for abuses. This story from the Tampa Tribune is a documentation of one such abuse. It will not be the last.

We need the Patriot act. It keeps us safe. I hope it find some LP stoners and puts them in jail where they belong.

Yeah...we need the Patriot Act alright, and leave up to this Administration and we will also have Martial Law, troops in the streets, Bush named President for Life...that is after all exactly what he wants. Of course, you won't have to worry, collaborators with the enemy never do.

The Patriot act is here to stay and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

We can resist it affect upon this nation. Believe me, resistance will grow, it must if this nation is to survive against the onslaught of tyranny. Besides, sooner or later, even the politicians will begin to see just how ineffective the Patriot Act really is. Have you ever read it? If not, then you should.

Well so much for freedom of speech. I wrote one of my best blogs and the Libertarians blocked it out due to some "spam" thing. Well, now I know.

Can anyone show how resistance has had any practical effect to the Patriot Act?

Actually, the resistance that was shown right before the sunset of the Patriot Act was a step, not totally effective, but a step. There are some politicians who actually listen to the voice of the People. It may not be totally effective yet, but if enough People raise their voice, some of them will be heard. In terms of real resistance, I suggest that their will eventually be the need for massive lawsuits challeging the Constitutionality of the Patriot Act. In other terms, we must be ready and willing to personally resist the Patriot Act and it's sister laws such as The Real ID Act. I also suggest that everyone switch over to SKYPE, which is so heavily encrypted that it is difficult for even the government to eavesdrop. Also, double or triple encrypt your emails (I know, its a lot of work), send communications of a sensitive nature through flash drives which are easily concealed and easily destroyed. Form networks of Constitutionalist,individuals who are willing to resist the governments demand for more and more authority over the People. Yes, sounds strange doesn't it, but it is always better to be prepared than to be left exposed. As tyranny and authoritarianism grows in this country, so to will the resistance to it.

What's wrong with you people? Can't you see that my admin- I mean, the Bush administration is doing it's best to keep us all safe? We're up against a group of folks who hate freedom. Keeping the country safe from the evildoers is hard work. It's haaaaaaard.

That's funny Jorge W....greatly appreciated.

Jorge, thanks for the support. I am saving the LP Stoners even if they are just jealous.

Jorge and W Rules -

You have had nothing intelligent or meaningful or thought-provoking to say in the short time that the both of you have been here.

Ah, the Patriot Act and the War on Terror both will prove to be ineffective and ultimately useless and wasteful. First, the War on Terror can never be won for there is no real enemy to fight. We can invade all the nations of the world and yet, if the root causes of terrorism are not addressed in a common sense manner, the terrorist will always exist and always find a way in which to attack their perceived enemies, namely the U.S. Terrorist insurgencies throughout history have never been defeated, for it is not the warfare of the battlefield that they fight. This government is seeking to defeat the terrorist on our terms and that will never be accomplished through the measures this government now employs. This government can kill thousands of insurgent terrorist and it will not accomplish its intended goal. In Vietnam, we killed and killed so many Viet Cong, in fact, we killed almost 3 million, yet in the end we finally realized the futility of our military misadventure. Ask the French about their military might in Vietnam, or better yet, in Algeria, the insurgency won and unfortunately we are making not only the same mistakes we made in Vietnam, but we are making the same mistakes that numerous nations have made throughout history. Before we invaded Iraq, the nation, although under the rule of a ruthless dictator, was, for the most part a more moderate regime in the region. It was a rather secular and almost had a liberal view of life in the midst of more extremist Islamic nations. There was much more tolerance there than in most of the Islamic nations in the area. Now I am not pretending that it was fantastic under the regime of Saddam, but I am saying that in comparison to the other nations in the Middle East, Iraq was more westernized than most. So, look at it now, a hot-bed of Islamic extremist just waiting to get their hands on a weapon to use against us. This government has, through sheer ignorance and possible oil greed, transformed what was once a controllable regime into a nation that will probably see the advent of some type of Islamic regime in the future. A regime that will not be a friend of the U.S. even through we may continue to occupy Iraq for decades to come, and that, by the way, is the plan of our government.
Have you ever noticed that we fight only wars that have little to do with the actual defense of this nation, but everything to do with what the government calls protecting U.S. interests. Most of the nations we have fought since WWII have been minor, non-threatening third-world countries. We wasted lives, wealth, and the future stability of various regions of the world by our military intervention and in the end we accomplished so very little.
As hard as it is for many people to come to grip with, we have lost the war in Iraq, and it is only a matter of time before the government sees the folly of its actions. The War on Terror will have the same results, it will be lost, but not without causalities, for the Liberty and Freedom of this nation will suffer under the weight of a growing threat from those who are suppose to protect and defend. We, the People, will lose to this War on Terror, we will lose our country to those who have little wisdom and a great deal of fear. We will lose our country to those who will take advantage of the fear-mongering and impose a mountain of laws to control and monitor the People of this country with very little affect upon any terrorist. So, the Patriot Act will have a big effect upon the People of this Land, but little on the terrorist, if any.

Strangely, I don't know any LP memebers who are stoners...I am sure there are some, but I have met more stoners in the other two political parties than I ever have in the LP. For the most part, LP members are thinkers, something obviously hard to do if you are a stoner.

Anonymous -

That's damn right.

The only terrorists that we have in this country is this pathetic government of ours. These stupid jack asses are violating the rights of every american in this country and most americans continue to re-elect these communist jerks to public office. Most americans will never wake up. They want uncle sam controllong their lives. They enjoy the thought of knowing that uncle sam is installing millions of cameras all over the united states in order too spy on you. Our government is hitler reborn and it will get much worse in the coming years. This government is evil. They are gutless, and spineless. And our voters are responsible for the loss of our god given rights.

DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND FAMILIAR...INDICATORS OF FASCIST IDEOLOGY:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

I would like to open a bank account without an SSN, but I want to see what's involved and how hard it is to do. Do you really have to sue the bank if they refuse, and will it work? If anyone has more info on this, or personal experience, please post here.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=28508

go to: www.pacinlaw.org
It's contains a great deal of information, not only about taxes, but other interesting things about citizenship.

CMMC,
I for one would like to THANK YOU for your intelligence, patience, and compassion to TRUTH, as I feel you are one of the sane voices in an otherwise insane world. As for me, I would love nothing more than to physicaly evict ALL of congress, and total government, and start over, strictly following the Constitution! 99% of Federal and State laws are UN-Constitutional in one form or another. That is why, after 40 years, I have finally found a party I can fully support!!

No one can "take away our liberty" we can only give it away ourselves. We ALL have the power to refuse to be slaves or cattle or victims. We only have to choose.

The time is coming where as my friend CMMC posted on another blog we will end up as Enemies of the State or as Collaborators. The Administration had again managed to ram through the Patriot Act extension in spite of token senate resistance. We are all going to have to make hard choices sooner or later. Mine was made long ago, how about you?

These are just thoughts, but I wonder just what we in the LP, and indeed other Americans, will do if we are close to the Presidential elections in 2008, and suddenly there is, conveniently, a disastrous terrorist attack in one of our major cities. The President assumes power under the emergency powers act, the elections are called off, Congress is suspended, and martial law is imposed. After doing a bit of research, I find that such a scenario is completely feasible, and even probable, to the character of GW. When we consider the facts that are now coming to light, which concern not only the first and second Bush elections, and the issues of 9/11 that should never be forgotten, the manipulation of intelligence leading to the war in Iraq, corruption, domestic spying, and the list goes on forever...it would behoove us to prepare for all eventualities. When you consider that this Administration ordered two "studies", one concerning the Constitutionality of the Ordinary Citizens Right to Bear Arms, and the Feasibility of One Party Rule in American, it all makes you wonder. It should make us wonder and indeed worry that we might have a mad man in the White House, a mad man among mad men, all set on the most expansive power grab in history.
An interesting quote came to my attention: "In order for the Republican party to fulfill its obligations to its base, the opposition must be eliminated. Great strides are being made in doing just that!". Now you notice one very important part of that quote is: "obligations to its base", not to this country, but to its base.
While I was not a fan of Al Gore, the events surrounding the 2000 elections should have slapped every LP member, indeed every Citizen, awake to what was obviously going on in this country. If that was not enough, and one slap never is for the American People, the 2004 elections were just as bad, actually, in many ways, they were worse. Again, I was not a fan of John Kerry however, when you consider some of the serious anomalies of the election of 2004, we should take a very detailed look at what happened and why it happened. As in the 2000 election, votes tended to do mathematically strange and unusual things by the time they were tabulated. Strangely only two companies make the new voting machines that comprise nearly 80% of how all votes are now cast in this country. Interestingly enough is that the VP of one and the President of the other company are brothers and long time supports of the Bush family. Another interesting fact is that one of the Bush buddies, now Senator Chuck Hagel was once the chairman of one of those companies that make the machines, that count the votes, that put Bush back into office. The same machines that happen to count the votes that actually put Chuck Hagel in the Senate seat for Nebraska. Equally as strange, at least in my mind, is the fact that a software programmer for the voting machine companies has admitted in a notarized affidavit that he was directed by Tom Feeney, the future Republican Congressman Tom Feeney, to develop a program that could "flip" votes from one candidate to another. All, every last voting machine error detected and reported in Florida during the 2004 election went in favor of, yes, you guessed it, GW Bush and Republican candidates. In fact every voting anomaly in Florida always favored Bush. In Ohio's Franklin county, the President won an overwhelming victory by receiving 4258 votes even though in Franklin county only 638 voters actually cast ballots. Actually, should any of this surprise us? Well, it does surprise me that he ever got elected, just read some of the things he has said over the years...my God, what a buffoon, I guess it really did take rigged votes to put him into office. Listen to Bush, you know that someone has to be pulling his strings, for without a puppet master behind him, there is no way that he could function in office...hell, even with a puppet master, he has an extremely difficult time.
What really surprises me is that the American Citizens are not loading their weapons.
So, now we have a man in the White House that has expressed his true feelings about his role as this nation's leader: "It's not a dictatorship in Washington, but I tried to make it one." and "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it.", and "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier... just so long as I'm the dictator."
It seems that much of the legislation rammed through Congress, like the Patriot Act and the Real ID Act, give an indication of dictatorial desire, lust for power, and unfortunately, the means to make an eventual dictatorship possible.
So, what will you do if 2008 rolls around with a huge "terrorist" bang, and Bush declares martial law, suspends elections and the Congress? Will you roll over and continue to "Play Patriotic Americans"? My point is that if all of these things have occurred, from voting fraud, to the questionable events of 9/11, the war in Iraq, and every other issue that has come to light about the manner of man Bush actually is, then how can we expect that the LP or any other political party can ever hope of succeeding in such contrived and manipulated political conditions. We must take into consideration that if there was such a concerted effort on the part of several well-placed power-brokers to place Bush in the White House, then they may well intend to keep him there.
I just wanted to throw this out, see what stuck to the walls and what you guys shoot down....LOL

The Patriot Act has saved America from the Terrorists and I am glad we have it. All the complaining about it comes from those who have something to hide and fear.

Hellen...if that were only true, but I think you should do a little more research into the matter.Have you actually ever read the complete Patriot Act, Hellen? Dig deep Hellen and you will find what I found...I am a former Conservative Republican who has seen what is happening and fears for the future of our Nation, not fear of the terrorist, but the government.

By the way Hellen...and I am not questioning your Patriotism, but the Department of Justice report stated that the Patriot Act has had little effect, if any, on the threat of terrorism. Read it, it's available to everyone.

I just had a thought, if the reason that terrorist attack our country is because, according to GW, they hate our way of life, our freedom, then why wouldn't they attack other nations that are just as free and life in the very same manner in as we do. It appears that the terrorist attack only those nations, like the U.S., which either meddle, intervene, or otherwise disrupt the internal affairs of other nations, particularly oil producing nations, which happen to be Islamic. New Zealand is never attacked, Switzerland, let's see...and anyone name others for the class?

Anonymous -

Two other nations that you could include are:

Ireland, and the Netherlands.

Yep...ur right

Ireland was ruled by Britain. Nazi Germany overran the Netherlands.

But, have terrorists targeted Switzerland, Ireland, and the Netherlands?

cmmc wrote: These are just thoughts, but I wonder just what we in the LP, and indeed other Americans, will do if we are close to the Presidential elections in 2008, and suddenly there is, conveniently, a disastrous terrorist attack in one of our major cities. The President assumes power under the emergency powers act, the elections are called off, Congress is suspended, and martial law is imposed. After doing a bit of research, I find that such a scenario is completely feasible, and even probable, to the character of GW. When we consider the facts that are now coming to light, which concern not only the first and second Bush elections, and the issues of 9/11 that should never be forgotten, the manipulation of intelligence leading to the war in Iraq, corruption, domestic spying, and the list goes on forever.

Heres my opinion.

Iraq has yet too surrender to this government and many, many americans will refuse as well. This government can impose marshall law on its people if they want but I believe that the cowards will pay a heavy price for trying to destroy our constitution, our bill of rights, and our way of life. The communists who are running this government are not smart enough to understand that peoples tempers are beginning to boil. The in the bush administration are the ones who are breaking the laws of this country. Many of us will die before we allow our government to enslave us, and the government is far too stupid to grasp the reality and consequences of trying to enslave 300 million people who surround washington DC. What people are starting to realize is the fact that congress, and senate are all party to george bush's war against civil liberties and 2008 is approaching very quickly. Many of us want the election process to work but when it is taken away from the american people....Look out. Your posting was very informative and has some very good thoughts.

I will not question anyone's Patriotism on this, or any other blog. I will however, make a very clear distinction between Factual Patriotism and Manipulated Patriotism. There is a complete difference between being faithful to one's country and faithful to a political party or government. Factual Patriotism is of such a nature that it must require the inquisition of all information and thereby forms a filter to distinguish governmental Patriotic propaganda from actual facts.
The German people Patriotically followed Hitler into his secure state of fascism against what he called " the terrorist threat to the Homeland", they allowed, in their Patriotic fervor, their constitution to be altered to the point that it was no longer an effective or relevant document of law. Patriotism is not, nor should it ever be, faith in a leader, a government, or a political party. Patriotism is the faith that is placed in what I consider an Inspired document, The Constitution of the United States of American. Patriotism is loyalty to the Constitutional Republic, which is above all governments, political parties, political leaders or ideologies. Patriotism is the love of this Country, and it has never been associated with a notion of blind loyalty and love of it's government.
The government was formed, under the guidance and strict limitations of the Constitution, as an agent of the State Republics to join in union with one another to ensure that the Sovereignty of the People would not be usurped by a centralized government. This was to ensure that the federal government did not, as Jefferson stated: "usurp from the States all government in little as in great things, when all government shall be drawn to Washington as the center of power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as oppressive as the government [British] from which we separated."
We must, as Citizens, educate ourselves or languish in our ignorance. It is apparent that the original Constitution of the Republic has, for all intents and purposes, been rendered ineffective, and nullified through gross misrepresentation, misinterpretation, and political manipulation. We are inundated by professional politicians, who have build their careers and indeed their fortunes, through the use and indeed, the abuse of their public trust. It is evident, in many cases, that those who were elected to uphold the public trust, defend the Constitution, and safeguard this Nation, have, through their despicable greed and their lust for filthy lucre and power, auctioned off the well-being and future of this Nation to the highest bidders, both domestic and foreign. In my mind and in my heart, they have accepted their paltry thirty pieces of silver in exchange for something far greater than any price that could ever be paid. We see politicians who have been influenced and have had their votes bought to pass laws which are not in the common good. Their corruption cries out for shame, yet they are neither shamed by their actions nor repentant toward the nation for their deceptions or corruption.
The intent of the Founding Fathers in forming a government, was that it should, as it's primary purpose, above and beyond all else, protect through Guaranteed Rights, each Citizen's Life, serve as a medium for the People to have the ability live their lives in absolute Liberty without governmental coercion or intervention, and to Pursue Happiness without threat of an imposing intrusive government. Yet, we see a government that has, and continues to do just the opposite, in fact, it has become destructive to those ends and no longer deserves the allegiance of the People. For it is the Right, indeed it is the Duty of the People to Alter or Abolish it, and to Institute New Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and Organize its powers in such a form most likely to effect the People's Safety and Happiness. The only reason this government was instituted was to secure the Rights of the People, and to derive its power from the Consent of the People. Without such Consent there can be no valid or indeed, legal government. When a government takes upon itself immunity, and through that immunity it declares its sovereignty as to supersede the Rights, Liberty, and Freedom of the People, then that government is no longer to be considered legitimate and operates as a rogue force which derives its power and authority from its ability to use coercion as a means of control.
Yes, as we are admonished, prudence dictates that governments long established should not be changed for light or transient causes; and accordingly, all experience shows that mankind is disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing that to which they are accustom. Our Founding Fathers were incredibly wise, their Words sing in my heart, and if we would only listen to their words of wisdom again, then this Nation would find itself once more as a Nation which would once again serve as a Beacon of Liberty to the world.
But now, as the list of abuses, usurpation's, cover-ups, mismanagement, misappropriations continue to mount up through the actions of those who were elected to defend and protect the Constitution, we are forced by these circumstances which appear to reduce Our Nation to that of absolute despotism, to revisit the ideals which caused Our Founding Fathers to throw off such government and provide new guards for of Our Future Security. As forces move us toward authoritarianism, contrary to the Foundations of a Constitutional Republic, we are compelled to reaffirm the same Constitutional Intent of Our Forefathers. We are being compelled to disassociate ourselves from the institutions of corruption found within this government and those who seek to impose a form of government that is opposed to all Constitutional Authority. We must, through all means of opposition, resistance and hardship, return Our Nation to a government of the People, by the People and for the People. We must return to the ideals that were established by Our Founding Fathers and rout those from the Halls of Power who seek to usurp their power over the People through their deceptions.
We must become steadfast in Our Resolve to Restore the Republic, uphold and defend the Constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, regardless of the cost! Our children and children's children depend on the actions that we now take upon ourselves and the outcome of our resolve.

Ireland was ruled by the British, and indeed they still occupy a portion of that Sovereign nation, and the Nazis did overrun the Netherlands however, I was speaking of the current situation in this war on terrorism. There is a reason behind the terrorism and until we find that reason and deal with it using common sense, it will continue to plague us.

CMMC -

The only Congressman that we can rely on is Ron Paul. He is the only one who will vote against anything that isn't authorized by the U.S. Constitution. In fact, his fellow Republicans and the Democrats have angrily referred to him as Dr. No.

YAY! Go Helen! You are right on! Some of these people just will not acknowledge we are in a WAR. Apparently they are either on the side of the enemy or they are in denial and stupid. Either way they are certainly not Libertarians, so it is useless to even talk to them.

I agree that Ron Paul is for the People.

I agree 100% that we should get to the bottom of why terrorism exists. While I do believe there are groups in our world that enjoy destruction, our human nature wants a peaceful environment. Unless we do our own research and abandon what the government and media tells us, we will never know the truth. It is sad to see those who post and proclaim that the Patriot Act has saved America, thus it is good. I don't remember there being much terror attacks before this Act was passed, does anyone else? With the revival of the Roman Empire and it's influence on the rest of the world, we are actually becoming a One World Government. All we are taught growing up and in the news is a 2 party system. Many Americans, unfortunatly, feel like this process is working. America must have a revival of its own, not one prompted by the government, but by the people. If we are to succeed in this day and age, we must get out and hit the streets. We have to turn off our TVs and interact with our fellow citizens. Simply having an idea does nothing, the idea must be presented for all. The bottom line is that until we open our eyes and see the destruction we are doing to ourselves, the status quo wins.

P.S. Anytime in history, we at war. Whether it be externally or internally. Until terrorists start taking down other countries and committing genocide, there isn't a need for us to be in a foreign land. We are at war internally with our neighbors, coworkers, and government. Our trade deficit is what makes us go to war externally. How many external wars can you remember us getting into before the industrial age? We depend too much and it is taking us down. You say we are at war with terrorists, I say you watch too much news and take their words for it. I say we are at war with homeless, culture, hunger, you say that the government should help and you have nothing do to with it.

Spike is at war with liberty. Most libertarains understand that a warfare/welfare state is not compatible with liberty or freedom.

I'd like to know who we are at war with. Is it a relatively small number of religious fanatics armed only with rifles and homemade bombs. The idea that the greatest military power on earth that spends as much as the rest of the world combined can't clean these clown's clocks in two weeks is absurd. The only war going on is against the American people and the agressive wars against other nations - not against the so-called Islamofascists.

As to defining what a libertarian is, Spike (who I suspect is paid by the American Enterprise Institute to troll these boards) is far off course.

Anyone who supports Bush, the fools erand known as the war on terror, and all the invasions of our privacy and our pocketbooks since 9/11 is NO
libertarian (small L or big L).

So far I have heard the following from this site and I am dissappointed:
1. The contrived word "neocon" being used by
ignorant people, who don't know what they
are talking about.
2. A person who will not pledge allegiance to
America.
3. People who will not identify either friends or
enemies of Libertarianism because they can't.
4. People who will not admit we are in WWIII
even as we are being invaded and attacked.

We Libertarians need a big tent with all kinds of people who really believe in liberty. "neocon" is as inappropriate as it gets. I think this site has been ruined by a bunch of marxist wannabe big time hypocrite reporters who don't give a damn about America.

I wrote the above blog. Sorry "at..", I forgot to enter my name. However just remember YOU do not speak for all Libertarians, and neither do I. that is just a fact of life... sorry! But, I love liberty and I will fight for it with my last breath.. will you?

Probably the Nuns were confused with Mullahs. Unfortunatly, we hace to take back the USA using the symbols, the flag and accusing the Republicans and Democrats [as well as the Traditional Left and Right] of being Anti-American.

Kind of off topic, but its good to see all the traffic this site and this blog are getting. This was just posted yesterday and there about 50 posts. I think the Libertarian Party is going to see a surge in popularity in the next election.

Hey Roberto! That's pretty good! But the flag is not just the "symbol" of America, it is the symbol of LIBERTY, and, as long as you acknowledge this and will fight for it, it doesn't matter who you are. But, you must make that committment, or you will not be believed. So far you have not.

Oh, by the way "at.." these killers are not mere "clowns" as you put it, they are FANATICAL KILLERS at war with us. Don't you get it? If not why not? Are you just a dumb-a--s or what? You can't hide behind your Libertarian facade forever. Come on out and fight with us for the Liberty you claim you want! I'm going to tell the families of those people jumping out of the tower in NY holding hands.. about you! No, on second thought.. YOU tell them.

Sorry "at.." forgot to sign my name again

Simple test... Who said, "Four score and seven years ago our Fathers set forth upon this continent a new nation concieved in Liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal"? And where did he say it? If you don't know, take a late night ride with Senator Kennedy, or go live with Hillary. Keep your powder dry.

Who hates the USA more, the LP or Osama? I vote the LP. All bad news. At least Osama has a VISION other than just bitching and moaning.

Spike,

1) People in office now preaching small government but seem to be making it bigger and bigger sounds like a "neocon" to my definition.

2) I pledge allegience to no one, and if it is these goons you are talking about you are right, I am no pledging to them either.

3) I am friend to Libertarianism, though I am not sure what that sentence really means to what you are looking for.

4) WWIII, I like your delusions of grandure. If we are at "war", why are we bascially just occupying another nation. The war on terror is just as useless as the war on drugs, half my paycheck gone every week, and I am not sure for what? So that a bunch of people can tell me what is right or wrong to do in the privacy of my own home?

Instead of vaguely making statements, and criticizing people for there stances, could you give me an explanation of what a Libertarian is? Since if you are actally one, I have to find another political party.

Hey Jevon...If you don't know what is a Libertarian, then why are you here? Go ahead... by all means, and with my blessing.... find another site (or party)to F--- up. I still don't know what "neocon" means, and many of us are not interested in your ficticious "definition". Lets deal in FACTS with terms found in the English Language...just the FACTS.

We all need to cut Prezident Bush some slack. He's under alot of preshure keeping us safe from the evildoers. I know what it's like to be under that kind of preshure. I have a very important job, and there are times when I just curl up into a ball and cry. But then my daddy pulls my ear and tells me to be a man. I wish I cood just kwit and live a life of solitude on a Texas ranch or something.

Spike,

I am glad to see that you took my bait in to admitting that YOU don't know what it is. I asked you a simple question, yet you fail to answer it. Instead you are just nasty. Considering that I am apparently not smart enough, please define it for me.

And as to your comment about "find another site (or party)to F--- up". I am unsure what I am doing right now to "F---" it up. So could you also make that clear.

Basically I am looking for a statement from you defines what you actually stand for, since from all of your posts, I am still unclear except that you seem to be spending alot of time on a site that you seem to disagree with. If that is the case I suggest you check out these websites as they are both really the same message shrouded in different statements.

http://www.rnc.org/ and http://www.dnc.org/ I am sure you will find plenty of people to help in your "stoner" bashing.

The one who wrote the post at 3:02 p.m. is the name-hijacking and blog-hijacking a**hole who just came on here this week.

I'm the real Tommy and I have been on here for nearly a year. Those on here who have a brain know full well that I've been on here for a year offering insightful and thought-provoking comments.

Hey Jevon...Thanks for reading all my blogs. I do read others too. Even yours. Together, we might learn something new and our pre-concieved world views may be enhanced. Even yours.. By the way, I do not resort to ficticious words like "stoner" or "neocon" because they are just that, and not found anywhere in the English language. I stand for Liberty and Freedom. What do YOU stand for?

Spike,

Those things "Liberty and Freedom", what are YOUR definitions of them? Since they can have as much variable meaning as "Stoner" and "Neocon". So I guess instead of being a "patriot". I am asking what you really stand for.

I just want to be left alone and keep my money. In return I will do the same for everyone else. Can you have anymore liberty or freedom than to make ALL your own decisions about your body and property?

Hey Jevon... Its OK...You can use any "sexy" terms you like including "stoner" and "neocon". But when your radioactive body parts are raining down, it really won't make any difference...will it? The terms LIBERTY and FREEDOM are in the English language. Just look 'em up!

The Patriot Act isn't that bad. It's one of the few pieces of legislation designed to protect the rights of "We the people". Isn't this what the founding fathers were trying to create? A government that can only pass legislation to protect your rights? Compared to virtually all other government actions, I think the Patriot Act is at the bottom of the list of government abuses of power, probably one of the few pieces of legislation the founding fathers would approve of.

I don't think it'll be too effective. But if a bank misreading it is the best abuse you can come up with then I rest my case.

Several posters on this site have tried to rationalize terrorism. Tell me, why did the KKK terrorize black people for so long?

Did the KKK attack black people because black people were evily bombing white cities? Or did they attack black people because they wanted to control them? The cause of terrorism at the international level is much the same.

Oh, Jevon. I almost forgot, small radioactive pieces of your money will also rain down with your radioactive body parts, because you "just want to be left alone". When your sworn enemy is attacking you with WMD's it will be too late to be left alone with your money. Why can't you see that? You seem to be intelligent..

There is, without any doubt, a great deal of difference between pledging your allegiance to American the County, and pledging your allegiance to a government! The rational line of thought would be if you happen to be a citizen of a country, which you loved dearly, yet the government of that country headed toward a path that was contrary to the Constitution of that Nation, yet you remained faithful to the government and not the Constitution.

Many Germans followed the path that lead them into tyranny, their allegiance were to a party leader, a government, and not to their country, although at that point they embodied their leader with the attributes of being the same as their country.

My allegiance is and always will be to America, The Republic, but it can never to a government which violates the laws of the land in which it governs by might instead of Right and Consent. If you allegiance is to the government first, and not the country then your priorities are indeed misguided and can be manipulated by the very government you pledge your allegiance to.

We were warned, time and time again by the Founding Fathers to be very watchful of government, do you ever wonder why they were so specific in their warnings? They knew what could happen, they actually knew what would happen!

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?пїЅ Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

"There is danger from all men.пїЅ The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." -- John Adams

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." -- Thomas Jefferson

"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -- Patrick Henry

Hey Zanatose (good handle).. why does Dr. Thomas Sowell disagree with you? The first part of your blog is OK... but, the last part seems to be some sort of soft rationalization for continued hatred of whites. Why? Do you want to see whites mistreated and killed? What DO you want?

Looks like a great Blog CMMC. Makes sense to me. Good Libertarianism. Well done!

Spike,

Less talk and more action. Your president needs you. Check out this website.

www.goarmy.com

Spike,

Well cool, I can't wait to have radioactive body parts coming down. I am not sure where they will be coming from (as most people will probably be destroyed, not just cut up by the "radioactvity"?). Did you go into one of those time capsules from before the Cold War ended? Maybe you could watch Red Dawn and get ready to kick some Ruskie butt. When exactly is this "Radioactive" attack going to occur? Please enlighten me.

The radio active body parts and your money will be coming from YOU Jevon. It isn't just a "palace" as someone (possibly you) suggested... it will be a lot of stuff including you and a palace and your money and other people and even commodes (if any) all at once. Im being REAL here Jevon, not wasting time like you Jevon. Go to hell Jevon, I will see you there.

What is it about libertarian blogs that attracts right-wing nut jobs ranting about patriotism and allegiance to the state?

What is all this hyperbole and hysteria about World War III? If in fact America is at war, it is a war of choice. The US has been intervening in the Mideast for over 50 years - covertly, militarily, economically and politically. The US has been attacked twice - in 1993 and again in 2001.

No libertarian in their right mind supports the kind of imperial adventurism the US has been involved in. It goes against the very grain of freedom and liberty. If fanatics are killing Americans now, it is because we are in their region. These people have no army, navy or air force and they occupy no portion of America.

For those of you who think the PATRIOT Act is protecting them, I would suggest you read this legislation. Find out what a national security letter is and compare that with the limitations of government in the Bill of Rights.

Some of you may also read the Constitution and find where the enumerated powers of the federal government call for propping up dictators and royal families (Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia come to mind). Maybe you can find where the Constitution empowers the federal government to provide foreign aid to governments that regularly commit espionage in the US (Israel & AIPAC).

The big tent of the LP isn't large enough for uninformed drama queen warmongers who wouldn't know what liberty was if it kicked them in the face. I would recommend that if your instinct is to kill people in the Mideast, go join the Israeli army.

Tom, You are right on the Money!

I wish to clarify something that I feel may have been misunderstood, perhaps it is because I did not make myself clear in the explanation of my opinion. When I make declarations concerning the government, I mean the government that has been transformed into a Statist Authority, operating outside and beyond the expressed limitations and authority of the Constitution. In it's proper and lawful role, the government retains it's legitimacy, being an impartial medium for the administration of justice and thereby safeguarding the very foundations upon which our nation was founded. Presently, the government that now operates outside of the confines of Constitutional Order and indeed, Authority. The government now operates within a framework of Statist Authority which usurps the Sovereignty of the People and represents a corruption of the Constitutional Republic. As the State expands its authority, it must, because of the nature of Statism, begin to use coercive powers against the People to maintain its ability to govern. It must compel society to act in ways that it would not normally act, conceding to the government responsibilities that normally rest within the People themselves. Naturally, as the expansion of powers increase, so do incremental degrees of oppression filter down upon the People. One of the primary indications of the transformation of a legitimate government into an illegitimate Statist government is that legitimate government requires few laws, regulations, and statues to operate, whereas a Statist government becomes prolific in the issuing of laws, codes, regulations, statues, and orders. For instance, within the Constitution, the federal government is only granted power over three federalized crimes, yet today, the federal government has added over 3000 federalized crimes to its statues. Of course, if anyone has read the Federal Regs, you know just how complicated and convoluted the law has become. In fact, it is now so complicated that the law has become, for the most part, arbitrary and relative to the interpretation of those who enforce the law, and this is a very dangerous legal situation, particularly for the People who are at the mercy of those who enforce and interpret the law. The Patriot Act, for instance, has several flaws, one of which is the fact that it is extremely vague and can be broadly interpreted as to be applied to many areas that have little or nothing to do with the fight against terrorism. There are, to date, so many laws, so many versions of laws, that even the courts find it difficult to express an Just opinion on many cases due to the shear volume and complexity of the law, law enforcement officials are drowning in the volume of laws that are on the books.In many cases, the laws being enforced no longer carries the Weight of Justice, but are now arbitary and open to various interpretations and judgements. The Scales of Justice are now tipped in favor of government and enforcement, instead of equally and blindly applied.
We do not need more law in this country, we need the common sense application, and just enforcement of those laws that exist and the repeal of laws that violate the Constitution and common sense. In fact, we need fewer laws which are more concise and have the capability of being enforced with efficiency and effectiveness. We should return to the Constitutional view of enforcement and allow the State Republics to take complete responsibility for the enforcement of all laws besides the three federal laws denoted in the Constitution.
As we know, the State is at an advantage, both politically, economically, and indeed authoritatively. We see that in its ability to direct and control just about every area that affects every person in this nation from cradle to grave. That advantage is neither right nor correct in a Constitutional Republic and indeed, it threatens the very foundations upon which the Republic was founded. Through its power, and perverted legal apparatus, the State has been allowed to nurture its own ability to support itself, becoming basically independent of the People's Consent. It has the distinct advantage to dispense its favors and justice as it sees fit, and as we see, those who work within that system of favors can take advantage of it to their own benefit instead of the benefit of the People.
It is obvious to just about everyone that this nation faces some very serious problems and issues which will be extremely difficult to solve. The question is what manner of government is best suited to solve those pressing problems and issues? In my estimation, the only solution rest within the Restoration of the Republic, strict adherence by the government to the Constitution, and the decentralization of government. In the Restoration of the Republic, I mean that the individual Sovereign States of the Republic should regain and retain their respective powers as delineated within the Constitution, that the federal government is severely restricted to Constitutional Order and function in those areas which it was intended so that the States would once again exert their proper authority deemed by the Consent of the People through their properly elected officials in State governments. Citizenship of each individual should once again be properly seated within each person's State Republic jurisdiction and removed from all federalized impositions of "national citizenship" and federal jurisdiction. All subordination to the federal government shall be relinquished in favor of the State Republics and the authority of such subordination, as denoted by the Constitution of the United States of America, shall be retained by the States. As with the Articles of Confederation, precedent to the Constitution, the States retain the power of the Union, not the federal government within a highly centralized power base. As it is, it appears that those who are elected as Representatives and Senators of the People represent the government more than the People. All property owned by the federal government within the State Republics should be relinquished back to the States.
Repeal of the 16th and 17th Amendments to the Constitution and the Federal Reserve Act are paramount to the Restoration of the Republic, as well as the modification of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution which is based upon a reconstruction government which usurped authority from the States and the War between the State Republics. The IRS and all progressive income and inheritance taxes should be immediately abolished, and all tax revenues should be collected in accordance to the original intent of Constitutional Law. The Federal Reserve and all central bank activities, as well as federal chartered banks should be eliminated and all legal tender laws repealed. The system of fiat currency should be eliminated and replace by the honest weight and measure of commodity backed currency, and the responsibility of such coinage should be returned to the authority of Congress.
The promotion of the 9th and 10th Amendment to the Constitution are also very important to the Restoration. It is necessary that the federal government legally recognize that there are Rights which are Retained by the People which are never even mentioned within the Constitution and that the federal government has no power to restrain or restrict such Rights. It is also necessary that the federal government legally recognize that the States also reserve, as do the People in relationship to the States in which they reside, certain Rights that are not delegated to the federal government of the United States.
All officials of the federal government should not be protected by any immunity which would prohibit the just execution of the Law, and the government itself should be subject to the Law and the just weight of the Law, as well as the consequences of breaking the Law. All liability waivers on all government agencies and personnel should be eliminated. All bills presented before both Houses of Congress should be written in the plain language of the People, not in the legal jargon of lawyers. In addition, each Senator and Representative should be required to read each and every proposed bill of legislation before they are allowed to vote upon such legislation.
The government of the United States should refrain, both economically and militarily, from all interventions, all intrusions, and all meddling in the affairs of other nations. This government should immediately withdraw from all alliances which require mutual defense treaties and the U.S. should immediately leave and repudiate the United Nations and all binding treaties which subordinate the Constitution of the United States to that of the United Nations. All foreign military bases should be relinquished by this government and all troops brought home. If the security of this Nation is paramount as the government states, then the focus should be upon this Nation, not the security of other nations.
In all foreign affairs, we should reject all world government courts and agencies, eliminate all foreign aid and reject the false role this government has taken upon itself to be the "policeman" of the world and in all world affairs that do not directly threaten the security of the United States we should maintain a posture of absolute neutrality.
There should be open, but strict immigration requirements and all borders closed to illegal aliens.
Congress should ban any and all "off-line" budgets and "pork" bills for individual districts, "black-bag" operations, and any covert actions not specifically approved by Congress, with direct Congressional oversight. All Executive Orders should be repealed and Signed Letters voided to limit the powers of the Executive to the constraint of the Constitution. Each branch of government shall maintain equal power in its respective role of government to each of the other branches, and shall uphold its respective responsibility without delegation of authority to any agency, or other branch of government. All government corporations should be abolished
A permanent ban of all lobbying efforts or contributions from corporations, special interest groups, foreign nations or affiliations shall be imposed. The only group that shall have access to Congress and the Halls of Power should be the People themselves or their appointed representatives to advocate their cause and petitions.
Of course there is so much more, enough to fill volumes with what should be done in this country and I realize that not everyone would agree with my assessments and that's fine. We should however, be willing to regain control of Our Government and through that control regain and rebuild Our Nation. We are, as a People, living in very perilous times and we must recognize those times for what they really are if we are to survive them as a Free People. We must be willing to do what is necessary to Restore the Republic, we must be willing become Patriots of the First Order as did Our Founding Fathers before us, Vigilant in the Cause of Liberty.

Sorry CMMC, your last blog (19 feb) reads like a misleading "divide and conquer" marxist crock of BS to me. We live in the UNITED States. Aren't you worried at all about your own or your Country's immediate survival? People like you who are being conned and frog-marched into oblivion are insane. Sure... we got "special interest bureaucrats" and "lawyers" willing to sell us down the river, and worst of all (something you didn't mention) the horrible George Soro's UN! Sounds like some Marxist professor got hold of you and has subverted your thinking. This does in no way detract from your very good blog of Feb 18. By the way Tom, this site IS "right-wing". our founding fathers WERE "right-wing", are you implying that they were "nut jobs"? Wassamata with YOU? Are you crazy?

It is obvious that some people either have a difficult time comprehending what they read, or the ideology that is embedded within their minds prevent them from such comprehension, with any clarity, that can make sense to them. Common sense demands the full faculty of a persons mind to comprehend, otherwise that person's only recourse is, as we have seen on this blog, the rants and raves of those who have little to contribute but the insults that reside within their mercenary minds.

Good blog CMMC, you are so right! "some people" do not comprehend what they read at all, because their ideologys cloud their "common sense" thinking. I think your militant feminist ideology has clouded your thinking. You hate us males so much you are willing to sacrifice everything. Remember the greatest feminist of all was Ayn Rand, a female Russian immigrant who wrote "Atlas Shrugged" and "Fountainhead". Have you read them?
I doubt it.

Although I am not bragging, however with a personal library of over 3000 volumes, those works are in my collection, as well as others such as:
The complete collections of Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat. Also books such as The Austrian Theory of Trade Cycles, Austrian Economy Theory, Anti-Trust: Case for Repeal, the entire collection of the Political Writings during the Founding Era 1760 to 1805, Conceived in Liberty, Epistemological Problems of Economics, Ethics of Liberty, Works of Albert Jay Nock, Praxeology and Understanding, Radicalism of The American Revolution, the Complete Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Adams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Edison, Tesla, and numerous others, including the history of England, Asia, Europe, and various other more esoteric writings, if you require that I jot them down. Now, would you like to know how many advanced degrees I hold, although basically worthless, they do denote a certain level of discipline.

BTW...it would be very difficult for me to hate males being a man myself.
Like I said, the ability to comprehend is evident, your words betray your ability.

CMMC So What about your advanced degrees or your library..? If you haven't learned anything they make no difference. Our original colonists were Freedom and Liberty lovers and they didn't need extensive librarys or advanced degrees to fight the terrorism (the kings men) of their time. As to your sexism, from what you have said about it in previous blogs, it appears that you hate men even if you are a male. If the shoe fits wear it. Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountain Head"?... AR was perhaps the single most influential writer of Libertarian principles in our time.

As true in 1945 as it is today, over Iraq, Patriot act, or anythin:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

The Fountainhead is a one word title Ellsworth, oh sorry, fake Spike. If you are such a devotee of Ayn Rand and Objectivism go dust off your copy of "The Virtue of Selfishness" and re read Chapter 19 "Argument from Intimidation. Study on it, digest it and try to understand it and why your attempts at disruption will not get you anywhere. This country's only immediate danger is from its own government, not the bomb tossing nut jobs they are manipulating as an excuse to take away our Republic and way of life. If you think we are in such peril, enlist and go fight the Neoconservatives war for them. Hopefully you are a better shot than Cheney.

CMMC the "We the People" event was in Tampa yesterday, I saw Aaron Russo's film and it was stunning. Spent a great deal of time with Robert Schultz "getting in the loop" on the petititions. The Appeals Court filings will be this Wednesday.

I urge all serious Libertarians, Patriots and lovers of Liberty to go to givemeliberty.org and involve yourselves in this important project if you are not already involved.

I guess I will have to try again (sigh). Yes I DO know that "Fountainhead" is one word. So what? What is your elitest point Chuck? Is it your point to show how very illiterate I am compared to your highness? Wow!... I will just BET that you have not read any of AR's books anyway! She was of course, possibly the most influencial Libertarian writer of our time. Being a SERIOUS Libertarian is to you just some highly selected dogma. Being a SERIOUS Libertarian to me is Living it!

With ya there Chuck...Matt your point is well taken. The "spikey fellow" is, from his writings, obviously very young. Actually Sike, most of the Founding Fathers were extremely well read, and most were degreed as well.As for Libertarian Throught, I feel that you are missing the fact that, while there is a relationship between the "objectivism" of Rand and Libertarian Thought, they are not the same thing and perhaps you should broaden your reading material to include some other classical Libertarian writings, or event the writings of some of the lesser know political figures in pre-revolutionary America such as John Perkins, Aequus,The Preceptor, Benjamin Rush, Thomas Bradbury, Nathaniel Niles, Carter Braxton, Phillip Payson, Amicus Republicae, David Ramsay, and another you might find interesting is Fisher Ames' "The Dangers of American Liberty". All such writings will do well to increase your vocabluary and make it much easier for us to understand why you take the effort to even make a post on this blog.

CMMC, you are an awesome writer and I agree with a great deal that you say. I am not as isolationist as you are, I believe that the only way we can control our borders is to make them more open to immigrants (particularly those from Mexico, Central and South America). I am not as concerned as you about our membership in the U.N., I believe that international communication through that body is a positive force for international peace. When you talk about U.S. elections being subject to fraudulent votes, it seems that you are taking the blame off the shoulders of the American people, which is where I believe it belongs.

An anonymous writer said that the American people will stand up and fight against government oppression. I strongly disagree. Letґs look at just two facts.

Fact #1:There are two million Americans locked up in American prisons at this moment - that is more people than the Germans imprisoned or killed in Germany during the entire third reich (though not nearly as many as they killed or imprisoned outside Germany). Do the American people care? As far as I can tell, the issue doesnґt even register on the American scale of issues. Nazi Germany arose because the German people ignored what was happening around them and went on with their daily business. That is exactly what is happening in the U.S. today.

Fact #2: The Bush administration invaded Iraq under obviously false pretenses, and the American people not only failed to remove the administration from office, they voted for the Bush administration a second time.

I hold that the American people are responsible for what is happening in the U.S., and for what is happening in the world as a result of U.S. foreign policy.

I believe that CMMCґs scenario of the Bush administration placing a hold on the 2008 elections by using an attack or other violent action as an excuse is plausible.

But perhaps it doesnґt matter, life in the U.S. is already so oppressive that it is like being in a prison even if you are not in prison. I am very disillusioned with the U.S., and very angry about what is happening.

I have a confession to make. I have purchased property outside the U.S. and I am in the process of moving. In a sense, this is a cop-out. But with one out of every 130 Americans in prison at this moment, it is currently very dangerous to be a libertarian or to be a square peg in the American monolith of round holes. Perhaps I can do more good or effect greater freedom for others outside the fifty states.

Chuck, I agree, http://www.givemeliberty.org is a great site that appears to be gathering more and more members. Another site that I have found extremely interesting is http://www.pacinlaw.org
We do need to take more action at every level, if nothing else, a massive bombardment of Congress with petitions and letters can't hurt.

Thank you Mike Stone, and like you, I am not asking anyone to agree with me, in fact, I don't mind opposing points of views if they contain a valid point and are presented in a rational manner. I can understand why you would think me to be an isolationist however, I do believe that our nation should have a very open relations with all nations of the world, but not the type of relationship that we have manufactured over the past 12 or so decades. I do not believe we should continue with the foreign entaglements that have brought us to the situation we find ourselves in today. I believe in extremely open and truly free trade between nations without the interference of governments, free markets tend to form their own allies through free trade. Free markets tend to balance out initial inequities on there own if governments are not involved in artificial manipulation of those markets. My comments on the UN are based upon my understanding that in many cases, Our government has subordinated this Nation, and Our Constitution to certain United Nations Laws that either circumvent or in effect, nullify the Laws of this Land. I have no problem with a United Nations type body that is brought together to help solve issues between nations, however, the UN has gone beyond that point to include areas of authority which either circumvent or subordinate national sovereignty.

Also Mike...I think you are wise to purchase property outside the U.S. I personally have a place north of Auckland, NZ, just in case things take a turn for the worse here at home. I have a feeling that there will be many that go into exile before it is all said and done. A cop-out? No, just foresight in my book.
On your point about the blame resting on the Citizens, I couldn't agree more, but after decades of pacification what else would we expect. We must remember that The American Revolution only had a hand-full of adherents to begin with, only later did the mass of the population follow suit. All change requires a change of thought, that is where education comes into play. The People must be made aware that there is a different way, that there is indeed something more to Liberty than just meaningless slogans spewed from the lips of professional politicians.

Thank you CMMC for explaining your position on the U.N., it puts it much closer to my own opinion.

Another point you made that I would argue with is eliminating lobbying by corporations, special interests, and some other entities. I feel that these entities have every right to express their opinions to our representatives. In fact, the lobbyists and their clients are doing their job and (at least in theory and barring any abuses) improving our country with their involvement. It is the legislatorґs job to evaluate their viewpoints and any proposed legislation, and determine if it is in the best interests of society. If the legislator fails to do his or her job well, it is the voterґs job to elect a different legislator. So once again it all comes down to the American people either being satisfied with their Republicrat legislators, or failing their responsibilities as citizens in a representative democracy.

I should mention that I am Treasurer of two PACs in Connecticut and oversee special interest lobbyists in Connecticut and Massachusetts, who are employed by organizations for which I am VP.

I think in your last post you are saying that sometimes it takes a few well-placed sparks to start a fire, and of course that is true. My hope is that change can be effected before their is violent revolution. Right now we have a substantial population, particularly black males, who are being harrassed by our government, imprisoned, and stripped of their right to vote. When a substantial portion of society has no legal ability to affect change, and that population is being targeted, harrassed, and imprisoned by the government, that is the perfect recipe for violent revolution. The only thing that is keeping that from happening right now is that apparently the black majority feels that it is okay for the government to destroy their families and ruin our communities and society.

As a rather politically aware youngster in the ґ60s, I watched Americaґs youth, just a few years older than myself, demand changes such as an end to the war in Vietnam, and improved civil rights in an era of segregation and discrimination. Ultimately, these youths convinced an adult population that was not used to listening to teens and young adults (keeping in mind that the voting age then was 21). Perhaps for this reason, I have a higher expectation of involvement in society for my fellow Americans, and that expectation has led to my disillusionment.

Mike, I would make the same suggestion to you as CMMC http://www.givemeliberty.org may be our last hope to change things peacefully. I agree with you also that PAC's have every right to spread their message and promote their cause. However it should stop short of purchasing the government, which is where it has gone.

CMMC - Just now checking out the other site you suggested, looks very interesting.

Thanks Mike, and I am in agreement with you on the basic points of discussion. In terms of Lobbying, well I hold that view based upon what we now have in Congress. I have no problem with any company expressing their opinion on any issue before Congress however, I do take issue with what has become the wholesale buyout of Congressional favors by Lobbyist which seems to have taken precedent over the voice and the the common good of the People. In my opinion, the voice of the People should always be a priority in Congress. The shear weight that is wielded by corporations and special interest groups overwhelms, at least it appears, the voice of the People and their common good in this Nation. The formula, as it now stands, has been disastrous for the People, the economy, and the Nation. Rights are reserved for the People, not corporations, or special interest groups which can place a high degree of pressure upon Legislators and that pressure is not always in the interests of the People. Even AARP applies a great deal of pressure upon Congress. In fact, AARP spent more last year than any other Lobbying group. The fact that it represents its members does not necessarily mean that the outcome of such representation in Congress is the best thing for the Nation, the People, or the common good. Those within that age group, like myself, who benefit from AARP and their lobbying efforts, get a disproportional representation within Congress because they have the power of AARP behind them. While that may be great for those of us within that particular age group, it may not, ultimately, be in the best interests of the People as a whole or the Nation in general. I would have no problem with any Lobbying or special interest group, if the playing field were a level one, where favors and money would not be used to sway legislation one way or another.
On the point of revolution, it is my fear and opinion that we are heading toward a time of severe economic distress which will usher in a time of extreme social unrest, the likes of which this Nation has never seen. It is also my opinion that the government is well aware of the fact that an economic disaster is looming over this Nation, and that is primarily the reason behind much of the legislation now being proposed and passed in Congress, such as the Real ID Act, and even the Patriot Act within it's vagueness. Indeed, the suggestion of militarization of several government agencies within this Nation, like FEMA and the nullification of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 point toward preparation for such eventualities. Indeed, the creation of the DHS and the Uniformed Domestic Police Force within the DHS are indicators that we are much closer to that time than we would like to imagine.

While I have not verified the validity of this site: http://freedom-force.org/pdf/13predictions.pdf I would say that it has some very interesting points.

I think the FBI is watching this and taking down names of people to investigate.

I have no doubt that is the case.

Dear FBI:

Please get the spelling right.

AMEN Chuck...LOL, that's so funny!!! I am sure they have our names!

I know they have mine, if you knew in what circumstances though the irony of it would make you laugh even harder!!

I know they would have my name down. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they have been investigating me for nearly the last year.

Hey, what do I have to do to get investigated? Must be something ive done in the last 68 years. I shook hands with McCarthy years ago. First time on this site. I Love it :)

What has Osama Bin Laden accomplished with the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
Everything that anyone with an agenda to drastically and negatively change the fabric of the American Society could wish for without physically invading this country. Even the fabric of our national ethics and morals has been altered, and that based solely upon these attacks. The balance of power within our three branches of government has also been morphed into a superior executive branch with two subordinate branches where traditional checks and balances are rendered effectively neutral beyond any usefulness or power. We now, in effect, have a system of government, which borders on latent authoritarianism, and the majority of the population is accepting it because it is being effectively marketed to the American People as necessary to secure this nation against the terrorist. Of course, it is not the first time that a nation exchanged its constitutional rights for a sense of security, even if that sense has little to do with actual security.
The threat from terror has never been to our way of life, so-called democracy, or civilization, as we know it, although that has been brandished about as the reason for this most counter-productive war on terror. The terrorist threat is, if anything, a threat to life and property for which there is both an adequate and appropriate defense through law enforcement without the draconian measures that have been falsely instituted by this government which have, as an intent, given the government an excuse to weaken every Right guaranteed by Our Constitution. We have been presented with a very well packaged marketing plan, drummed up by the government, and asked to blindly follow the lead of the government without questioning the effectiveness or the execution of its plan. As we all know, from the evidence at hand, every plan that the government has ever executed has been flawed at best, and an utter failure at the very worse. This government, in its ability to adequately function, reminds me more of the bureaucratically obese Soviet Union in decline, weighted down by inefficiency, corruption, ineptitude and debt, than the Glorious Union of The United States of America. It is indeed a sad day!
We have allowed the incredibly horrifying national disaster of 9/11 to traumatize this nation into a reactionary mode of thought, attitude and national policy. There is a great deal of evidence that the government may have not only had prior warnings of the 9/11 attacks, but had specific knowledge of the attacks, yet did absolutely nothing to prevent them.
We have been asked to believe that we are so threatened by the terrorist that unless we surrender some of our Liberties, we will be swept away by the modern plague of terrorism. We have been asked to believe that this threat will destroy our way of life that we must, in order to thwart that threat, give up our way of life to defend and secure this nation. We have been asked to believe that this threat is so great that we will turn a blind eye to anything this government does in the name of protecting this country.
This government has taken actions, which would never be acceptable under what would be considered normal circumstances in this country. We have been silent as this government has broken it's own laws, as well as international laws and treaties. It has kidnapped foreign nationals in foreign countries, it has detained it's own citizens without due process of the law, it has tortured people and employed others to torture people all in the name of national security and contrary to what was once our national conscience and moral character. It has invaded, and occupied a sovereign nation, an act that it has condemned as a criminal act when committed by other nations, yet it has claimed the right in absolute defiance of the very international laws that it has bound itself to by international treaty.
This government has damaged its own case, instead of containing the threat of terrorism; it has facilitated its growth and expansion by engaging in an illegal and misdirected war in Iraq, damaging its image and reputation in the world and alienating other Mid-East nations. The Iraqi war has not only increased the number of terrorist in the region, it has exacerbated the reasons behind the terrorist threats to this nation. There is nothing like than stirring up the whole hornet's nest while you're only trying to kill one or two hornets, such strategy would normally be considered unwise, if not just plain dumb.
We have not only lost our way, but lost our place in the world as well, few nations retain trust of our nation and therefore, we have lost our ability to prove an effective broker of peace and diplomacy among nations. We have become the bully on the block and have replaced the Soviet Union as the threat to world peace. The new Russia and China are replacing the U.S. as power brokers to the world, the only thing that remains is our military might, and that is only functional on borrowed money.
The political leadership in this country has milked the terrorist threat for all it is worth to achieve their political ends. They have relied on a trumped up, color coded threat meter to pump up their poll ratings at demand, terrifying the people from time to time with their pre-calculated moves from yellow to orange to red.
So today, we do have a war on terrorism, but it is being waged within our own country, by our own government, against its own people in the form of vague legislation coupled with a broad latitude of interpretation that will severely restrict a citizens ability of free speech and association, privacy, travel and eventually the Right to Bear Arms. Let's not forget the next step in national security, with the implementation of the Real ID Act, we will all be required to "Register" with the government and present our "Papers" upon demand. This government will be able to gather, catalog, and maintain a national database which will contain not only your medical and school records, but your buying habits, your internet activities, your religious and political beliefs, your financial records, who you associate with and track your movements. That will be in your new Bio-Metric Real ID, your new passport, and eventually your retinal scan will also be recorded, all in the name of national security of course. I wonder just how many Americans will gladly line up for their new Bio-Metric Real IDs?
Now, although it was released with little notice or fanfare, the CDC released MEHPA, which is the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act for an added level of security just in case there is an outbreak of something like Avian Flu or perhaps an attack by terrorist with a bio-weapon against this country. If you want to read something that will scare the proverbial crap out of you, then read this tid-bit of legislation. It allows the governors of the States to declare a State of Emergency without any legislative approval or oversight. In a State of Emergency, the States can, upon the sole authorization of the governor, confiscate personal property of any kind; control the distribution of food, fuel, firearms, and even clothing. It can detain a citizen against their will, test them for any contamination, and compel them to receive treatment without consent or legal representation.
The Patriot Act, well, it's another ball of wax that can conform to just about any security requirement that government needs to enforce.
If you really want to read something interesting and relate it to the current implementation of these so-called security measures, then read a document that was written by the Hart-Rudman Commission long before 9/11, it is called "The United States Commission on Nation Security for the 21st Century". You see the events of 9/11 were the perfect excuse for the implementation of the Hart-Rudman Commission Plan. We are under the assumption that the Patriot Act, the Real ID Act, and the other legislation being passed are a direct result of 9/11, when nothing is farther from the truth.

PS...Ever wonder what happened to the Terrorist Alert? I guess the political usefullness of the Color-Coded Terrorist Alert Meter was no longer an effective political tool to manipulate the Citizens or increase the President's poll ratings.

"Hey, what do I have to do to get investigated? Must be something ive done in the last 68 years. I shook hands with McCarthy years ago. First time on this site. I Love it :)

Posted by: Tony Lindner at February 20, 2006 11:29 AM "

Tony:

Joseph, Eugene or Charley?

Mike Stone:

Why don't you move to another place outside the US like you said you would... and, please do this NOW! Do this, and take the rest of your fellow-traveler companions with you. With your superior understanding of us mere mortals, maybe you can be an isolationist and declare war on the US and get money! Me and many others I know will stay here and fight the Marxists...while you go away.

"What has Osama Bin Laden accomplished with the 9/11 terrorist attacks?"

Nothing short of total victory. The tragedy is he has had to do nothing further on American soil to accomplish it. George W. Bush and his Neocon cronies finished with Legislation and "Executive Orders" what Osama, Ho Chi Minh, Mao Tse Tung, Leonied Breshnev, Nikita Kruschev, Josef Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Tojo, and dozens of others have failed to do throughout history - destroy our Constitutional Republic through nothing more than fear. The dread of "what if".

Just hours after the 9/11 terrorist mass-murders, PNACer Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld ordered his aides to begin planning for an attack on Iraq, even though his intelligence officials told him it was an al-Qaida operation and there was no connection between Iraq and the attacks. "Go massive," the aides' notes quote him as saying. Rumsfeld leaned heavily on the FBI and CIA to find any shred of evidence linking the Iraq government to 9/11, but they weren't able to. So he set up his own fact-finding group in the Pentagon that would provide him with whatever shaky connections it could find or surmise.

Feeling confident that all plans were on track for moving aggressively in the world, the Bush Administration in September of 2002 published official policy of the U.S. government, as proudly proclaimed, is virtually identical to the policy proposals in the various white papers of the Project for the New American Century and others like it over the past decade.

Chief among them are: 1) the policy of "pre-emptive" war -- i.e., whenever the U.S. thinks a country may be amassing too much power and/or could provide some sort of competition in the "benevolent hegemony" region, it can be attacked, without provocation. (A later corollary would rethink the country's atomic policy: nuclear weapons would no longer be considered defensive, but could be used offensively in support of political/economic ends; so-called "mini-nukes" could be employed in these regional wars.) 2) international treaties and opinion will be ignored whenever they are not seen to serve U.S. imperial goals. 3) The new policies "will require bases and stations within and beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia." In short, the Bush Administration seems to see the U.S., admiringly, as a New Roman Empire, a vast military and economic empire with its foreign legions (and threat of "shock & awe" attacks, including with nuclear weapons) keeping the outlying colonies, and potential competitors, in line. Those who aren't fully in accord with these goals better get out of the way; "you're either with us or against us." We have all heard that before, right??

Everyone loves a winner, and American citizens are no different. It makes a lot of people feel good that we "won" the battle for Iraq, but in doing so we paid too high a price at that, and may well have risked losing the larger war in the Arab/Muslim region: the U.S. now lacks moral stature and standing in much of the world, it is revealed as a liar for all to see (no WMDs in Iraq, no connection to 9/11, no quick handing-over the interim reins of government to the Iraqis as initially promised), it needlessly alienated our traditional allies, it infuriated key elements of the Muslim world, it provided political and emotional ammunition for anti-U.S. terrorists, etc.

Already, we're talking about $80 to $100 billion from the U.S. treasury for post-war reconstruction in Iraq. And the PNACers are gearing up for their next war: let's see, should we move first on Iran or on Syria, or maybe do Syria-lite first in Lebanon?

One can believe that maybe PNAC sincerely believes its rhetoric -- that instituting U.S.-style free-markets and democratically-elected governments in Iraq and the other authoritarian-run countries of the Islamic Middle East will be good both for the citizens of that region and for American interests as well -- but even if that is true, it's clear that these incompetents are not operating in the world of Middle Eastern realities.

These are armchair theoreticians -- most of whom made sure not to serve in the military in Vietnam -- who truly believed, for example, that the Iraqis would welcome the invading U.S. forces with bouquets of flowers and kisses when they "liberated" their country from the horribleness of Saddam Hussein's reign. The Iraqis, by and large, were happy to be freed of Saddam's terror, but, as it stands now, the U.S. military forces are more likely to be engulfed in a political/religious quagmire for years there, as so many of the majority Shia population just want the occupying soldiers to leave.

And yet PNAC theorists continue to believe that remaking the political structure of the Middle East -- by force if necessary, although they hope the example of what the U.S. did to Iraq will make war unnecessary -- will be fairly easy.

These are men of big ideas, but who don't really think and can’t seem to connect the dots. They certainly don't think through what takes place in the real world, when the genies of war and religious self-righteousness are let out of the bottle. For example, as New York Times columnist Tom Friedman recently put it, the U.S. had no Plan B for Iraq. They did great with Plan A, the war, but when the Saddam government collapsed, and with it law and order, and much of the population remained sullen and resentful towards the U.S., they had no prepared way of dealing with it. An embarrassing three weeks went by, with no progress, finally leading the Bush Administration to force out its initial administrators and to put in another team to have a go at it.

No, friends, the PNAC boys are dangerous ideologues playing with matches in a tinderbox, and the U.S. is going to get burned even more in years to come, unless their hold on power is broken. The only way to accomplish this, given the present circumstances, is to hand them their hats in the 2006 mid term elections, thus breaking the Neoconservative momentum that has done, and is doing, such great damage to our reputation abroad and to our country internally, especially to our Constitution.

We don't need an emperor, we don't need maintaining the existence of the Federal Reserve when the economy is tanking because the currency is worth nothing, we don't need more "pre-emptive" wars, we don't need more shredding of constitutional due process. Instead, we need leaders with big ideas who are capable of creative thinking. We need peace and justice in the Middle East (to help alter the chemistry of the soil in which terrorism grows) by ending our occupation and withdrawing, we need to end treaties like NAFTA and CAFTA thus restoring jobs and economic growth at home, and we need authentic and effective "homeland security" consistent with our civil liberties in the best interests of our Constitutional Republic. I personally believe Dr. Ron Paul should be approached by this Party to be its 2008 candidate.

In short, we need a new Administration, which means that we need to get to serious work to make all this change happen. Organize!, organize!, organize!

Incidentally, to give credit where credit is due many of the facts I covered in the above were from "A PNAC Primer. Bernard Weiner. Co-Editor, The Crisis Papers" - 2003.

McCarthy was a socialist pig, Tony, or didn't you know that? Probably not. Hell, you might BE one.. Many saw him as a Marxist (same thing)...Social Security, Taxation, Unionism, and Government interference in anything is a collection of glaring collectivist failures.

The most important news of the moment is... the UAE is a serious threat to us all.. Can't you see that? Many others on this site can't see that. their self-absorbed pomposity is glaring.

Tony, my suggestion is that you go through this blog and read every entry that spike has posted. It will become very apparent that his rants offer little more than a smidgen of content and provide no interests, whatsoever to anyone else besides himself.

Chuck:

Osama bin Laden is a dead man. He is the chief terrorist of all time. We will get him soon.
Do you like this Chuck? However, with people like Carter, and the Clintons, and George Soros, and illegal aliens, and Marxist teachers, and you to help Osama, he will be difficult to get... but no matter, we WILL get him.

Hey Tony, I was simply expressing an opinion. But watch out for "at.." he/she likes to speak for other people. "at.." is obviously irritated by my opinions and has (as usual) urged collectivist responses.

The Kurdish provinces in northern/noirtheastern Iraq are far more stable since they have already established their own police and military. The same things is true about the Shi'ite provinces in southern/southeastern Iraq. Based on those facts, there is no point in having U.S. troops in the Kurdish north or the Shi'ite south.

The Sunni provinces in central Iraq are chaotic due to the unconventional fighting going on in that part of Iraq. Since there is unconventional fighting in central Iraq, more troops there would worsen the problem since we would be giving them more walking targets to hit.

The only time when more troops would be more effective for fighting the enemy is if we're fighting a conventional war. But this is an unconventional war.

To "the real Tommy" Feb 20 4:00 pm. Tommy, I read your blog with great interest three times. I know that we have been handing over the reigns to the Iraquis as fast as we can, and training them too. But this crap about an "unconventional war" leaves me cold. Just what is a "conventional" war? Rocks? Sticks? BB guns? Sling Shots? 30-06 Rifles? Home-made Land Mines? Sounds like you are just trying to help the terrorists, and minimize our military successes in Iran.

You're right on the mark real Tommy! The Vietnam war was a very unconventional war, we were harassed by VietCong insurgents who used guerilla tactics to inflict as much damage as possible without risk to their own forces. It is the same with Iraq, the same ambush tactics, but more sophisticated weapons. The insurgents have the upper hand because they remain "hidden" within the population, like the VietCong, you never really knew who you were fighting or where and when they would strike next.

I think the perfect Libetarian is Osama bin Laden.
He reflects all the tenets of our party if you think about it with an open mind.

You just lost your credibility real Tommy.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS MAKING THE HOMELAND SECURE:

By Cameron W. Barr
Washington Post Staff Writer?Friday, February 17, 2006; Page B08

Two uniformed men strolled into the main room of the Little Falls library in Bethesda one day last week and demanded the attention of all patrons using the computers. Then they made their announcement: The viewing of Internet pornography was forbidden.
The men looked stern and wore baseball caps emblazoned with the words "Homeland Security." The bizarre scene unfolded Feb. 9, leaving some residents confused and forcing county officials to explain how employees assigned to protect county buildings against terrorists came to see it as their job to police the viewing of pornography.

After the two men made their announcement, one of them challenged an Internet user's choice of viewing material and asked him to step outside, according to a witness. A librarian intervened, and the two men went into the library's work area to discuss the matter. A police officer arrived. In the end, no one had to step outside except the uniformed men.
They were officers of the security division of Montgomery County's Homeland Security Department, an unarmed force that patrols about 300 county buildings -- but is not responsible for enforcing obscenity laws.
In the post-9/11 era, even suburban counties have homeland security departments. Montgomery County will not specify how many officers are in the department's security division, citing security reasons. Its annual budget, including salaries, is $3.6 million.
Later that afternoon, Montgomery County's chief administrative officer, Bruce Romer, issued a statement calling the incident "unfortunate" and "regrettable" -- two words that bureaucrats often deploy when things have gone awry. He said the officers had been reassigned to other duties.
Romer said the officers believed they were enforcing the county's sexual harassment policy but "overstepped their authority" and had to be reminded that Montgomery "supports the rights of patrons to view the materials of their choice."
The sexual harassment policy forbids the "display of offensive or obscene printed or visual material." But in a library, which is both a public arena and a county workplace, the U.S. Constitution trumps Montgomery's rules.
At most public libraries in the Washington area, an adult can view pornography on a library computer more or less unfettered. Montgomery asks customers to be considerate of others when viewing Web sites. If others are put off, librarians