The official blog of the Libertarian Party
August 10, 2007
American support: The "kiss of death" for M.E. democracy
What is it about the Bush administration that seems to keep from them information for many years that is plainly obvious to everyone else? I suppose it has to do with the belief that if they deny reality, then maybe it isn't true after all. Take for instance Iraq. Prior to the invasion, Saudi Arabia warned of vicious sectarian violence that could send the country into civil war should the U.S. remove Saddam from power. A couple of years and a couple hundred billion dollars later, our troops are babysitting a bunch of whiney children, except these children don't just pull hair and bite.
The other little factoid experts could have told Bush, and probably did, was that forcing democracy is not only an irony in and of itself, but it just doesn’t work in places like the Middle East.
"The Americans think that supporting democracy should create positive reactions," said Nicola Nassif, a columnist with the left-leaning Lebanese daily Al Akhbar. "No one can be against democracy, sovereignty, independence and freedom. But not if it upsets the internal power balance, not if it empowers one party against the other, especially in a country where supporting one group can lead to violence and even civil wars."
Well, apparently Bush must have been out the day they talked about Middle Eastern politics in class. Had he been there, he would have gotten a great history lesson in the failure of American intervention in the Middle East, as well as why implementing democracy in a region not hospitable to such a doctrine just won't work. It's not that Islam and democracy aren't compatible. Turkey is a great example of how democracy can still exist even in a country where the majority of people are Muslim. But it's just that radical Islam and democracy are rather like oil and water. They don't mix.
What Bush failed to see is that in order for democracy to work in a region where religion comes before anything else, even freedom, is that the people: a) have to be in favor of a "western" idea, and b) the people have to truly believe in a clear separation of church and state. Pakistan used to be a relative democratic state until the extreme forms of Islamic law began seeping into the system, and now we see a country near political chaos.
Arab liberals who have embraced America continue to see their influence fade in the region, as more conservative and Islamist forces continue to rise, Mr. Rasheed said. Voters invariably frown on strength coming from abroad, he said; the only legitimate sources of strength any Arab politician can turn to is based on either tribal power or religious ties.
The American army may have removed the extremists from power, but the extremism of Islam in that region still flourishes. And that's not something you can just beat out of people. Bush gave the people a right to vote, but the people didn't vote for people who had the same goals as Bush, and thus creates quite a tremendous problem.
But this isn't something new for the U.S. It's long been the history of the region. That's why it's so staggering to see Bush make the same mistakes over and over again.
Lebanon's voters in the Metn district, in other words, appeared to have joined the Palestinians, who voted for Hamas; the Iraqis, who voted for a government sympathetic to Iran; and the Egyptians, who have voted in growing numbers in recent elections for the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. "No politician can afford to identify with the West because poll after poll shows people don't believe in the U.S. agenda," said Mustafa Hamarneh, until recently the director of the Center for Strategic Studies at the University of Jordan. Mr. Hamarneh is running for a seat in Jordan's Parliament in November, but he says he has made a point of keeping his campaign focused locally, and on bread-and-butter issues. "If somebody goes after you as pro-American he can hurt you," he said.
Until Bush finally wakes up and sees that the Middle East he envisions won't come about from the business end of an M-16, the United States is going to continue to find itself beating its head against the wall. Democratic reform in the Middle East must come from within, first starting with a liberalizing of the Islamic religion there. How does one exactly do this? Well, that's the million-dollar question, or should we say $400 billion question. However, one way you DON'T do it is by waltzing in and telling everybody they're going to democratize their country whether they like it or not.
Mr. Nassif added, "Since then, every time the Americans interfere, it ends in a war or in their expulsion."
Posted by Andrew Davis at August 10, 2007 11:16 AM
Reader Comments:
Ya know, I took one class in college called "introduction to the Middle East". It was a great class, but even this most basic entry level class taught me enough about that region that I was able to see what was going to happen if we took Saddam out, and I predicted just that. If I, a lowely engineer with no political experience and very little political knowledge could see what was going to happen why couldn't the people running our country see it?
I sometimes find myself wondering if they did know what was going to happen and went ahead anyways for their own unknown reasons.
I imagine Clark could educate us all on this one...
Matt, do you have anything written before the invasion of Iraq in which you say "If Saddam is removed then Iraq will fall into civil war"?
I don't think so, but I remember talking to my wife about all the different factions there and how they had been killing each other for centuries. The only reason Saddam was able to rule them was because he was more ruthless than anyone else. I wasn't really blogging anything that long ago, though, so I can't really direct you to anything I may have written.
I am not condoning Saddam by any means. The guy was a ruthless dictator who ruled by fear. But we should have been more prepared for what would happen when we took him out and all those ancient rivalries flared up again.
I do rememeber reading an article somewhere just within the past year or so outlining the intelligence community's assesments of what would happen when Saddam was removed from as far back as the first gulf war and the plans that were formulated to deal with it. It went on to say that those 10+ years of plans were just blown off by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld and anyone who dared contradict their predictions was railroaded into retirement or fired (think of General Eric Shinseki). I was still in the Army when that went down and everyone around me agreed that Shinseki did not just "retire" of his own volition. He was making huge long-term plans for transforming the army and was well liked amongst all of the soldiers I knew...
The problem, was not with removing Saddam, the problem arises at taking every single former Iraqi offical out. We would have at least had a base we could rely on then, instead of starting a Democracy in a highly oppresed place from scratch.
Lol, can no one say Haliburton and Oil? What more reason do we need. Somehow all of our oil ended up under their country.
Uh, I tend twoard the sarcastic and cynical just in case you're so simnple minded you don't recognize it as such.
RE: Pakistan used to be a relative democratic state until the extreme forms of Islamic law began seeping into the system, and now we see a country near political chaos.
... Post -Andrew Davis ...11:16 AM
Wait a minute! Pakistan was created by partition out of western India by the British government, to 'solve' the religious chaos and fighting between Hindus and Muslims in India. What a crazy idea! The 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' is not 'their' idea, but an idea imposed from London.
Some think the 'solution' to Iraq is to break the country into three parts (by ethnic-religious differences). If you think the partition of India was a success, than you might want to go along with it. I don't see the partition of India to be a success, but the creation of a monster, with Kashmere area still unresolved.
What would our own country look like if we had political parties based exclusively on religion or ethnic background? How would you like London deciding what state you must live in (or move to)?
C. Al Currier -
Would it have been better if Pakistan was actually apart of India?
Also, how would it be possible for the Kurds, Sunni and Shia fundamentalists, secular Sunnis and Shias, and others in Iraq to co-exist?
The US military is nothing more then a billion dollar a day corporate subsidy.
Anyone with a brain in their heads, knows this was never about “weapons of mas destruction” but oil. I think, it was 60 minutes, that just did a documentary on how your health care bill got passed.
The multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies spent huge sums of money on a propaganda ads followed by bribing every single person that voted. With future promises of high paying jobs and direct bribes guess which way they voted, “The problem is not in Iraq.”
Peter
REPUBLICRAT MATT WROTE: "I imagine Clark could educate us all on this one"...
Naw, I suspect you won't believe anything until you hear it from Rush Limbaugh, Brian Williams, etcetercrats!..
It seems obvious---money and oil..oil and money..
But I can't seem to write 'coherently,' on the subject of 'money' according to several Republicrat weasel-lopers here!..So maybe some of you Republicrats might find me/write me YOUR most 'coherent' responses to the following direct questions:
"How is money created and/or issued? By whom? What, precisely, is 'it' we use as money/the unit of account? How many 'dollars' are there?"
Surely with all the 'economics' geniuses, Rush Limbaugh fans, etc. CLARK-haters here, one of you might write some 'coherent' words as to my query..
(i didn't think so) ;o)
ANDREW DAVIS WROTE: "..A couple of years and a couple hundred billion dollars later, our troops are babysitting a bunch of whiney children.. (END)
Tens of thousands of murdered Iraqis and DAVIS uses the word 'babysitting!?!'
(The Iraq mass-murder: Sanitized by the 'Kneel Boor Wing' of the party?!)
Clark, somehow I think that even if I spent my whole day researching your question, finding all kinds of articles and quotes and whatever, then posted a nice long serious answer here for you, all I would get in return is some raving diatribe about being a "republicrat" who doesn't understand "dollar$" or something along those lines.
In other words, it isn't worth my time to answer your question because I am sure whatever answer I have is going to be wrong according to you.
I wish we could asterisk Clark's posts with some sort of disclaimer, like: "The thoughts and opinions expressed in the rants of this semi-literate crackpot are most decidedly NOT shared by the LP or its sane and rational members."
It's tempting to just ignore the fool. But I doubt that will make him go away, because what the hell else would he have to do? Go out with his friends? Besides, if anyone is reading this blog for the first time, I think it's important for them to know that he's not a reflection of who we are or what we stand for.
Mr. Davis, can you help us out with that disclaimer? It would save us all a lot of time. Besides, I almost feel bad that we have to continue beating up on the poor imbecile. (I say "almost" because he usually deserves it.)
It'$ obviou$ ??ark i$ a paid (with $$$) Repub?i?an po$ter hired to make the ?P ?ook ?ike a bun?h of kook$. Be$t to ignore him.
The best thing to happen to the ME is the USA showing them how not to be so savage and backwards.
They never had it so good.
Yeah, Steve. I suppose it says somewhere in the U.S. Constitution that our job is to "civilize" other countries by force. Can you please point out where it says that? I can't seem to find it.
RE: Stan ... Pakistan, India, etc.
Also, how would it be possible for the Kurds, Sunni and Shia fundamentalists, secular Sunnis and Shias, and others in Iraq to co-exist?
Many of the people of Asia and Middle East do not understand or want government by nation-states, a concept forced on many of them by the British Empire, the U.S.S.R. and now the U.S. The British failed, the USSR failed and now the US is failing.
I don't have any 'solutions' in imposing nation-states on people whose loyalties are to family, clan and to some extent, religion.
Sorry about the time delay in responding. I got sidetracked in trying to find a magazine article from a few years back. It cooresponded with the time before the last presidential election, Bush v. Kerry. Many polls were going on then with ups and downs for Bush and Kerry. One magazine conducted a poll in Pakistan of Bush v. Osama Bin Laden and got some interesting numbers. If I remember correctly, Bush had an approval rating of 5%, and OBL 60%. I wish I could get my hands on that article again. ...Pakistan, our ally?
During the 'Cold War', religious extremism was considered a virtue against the godless communists.
REPUBLICRAT MATT WROTE: "Clark, somehow I think that even if I spent my whole day researching your question, finding all kinds of articles and quotes and whatever, then posted a nice long serious answer here for you, all I would get in return is some raving diatribe about being a "republicrat" who doesn't understand "dollar$" or something along those lines. (END)
Heck, in the time it took to write the preceding you could've answered my query!!.. (if you had a clue, that is!) ;o)
CRYIN' BRYAN SPEWED: "I wish we could asterisk Clark's posts with some sort of disclaimer, like: "The thoughts and opinions expressed in the rants of this semi-literate crackpot are most decidedly NOT shared by the LP or its sane and rational members." (END)
Cryin Bryan reminds me of many monetarily ignorant Republicans/crats..When exposed as monetary ignoramusses I've found they tend to 'fink' to the board nannies whilst 'duck'ing the questions/assertions I raise about 'money'..
In other words, you Republicans/crats tend towards being a bunch of ducking finks!.. ;o)
Some hints for newbie$:
(Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, "Modern Money Mechanics"
"The actual process of money creation takes place in commercial banks. As noted earlier, demand liabilities of commercial banks are money.", p.3.
"Confidence in these forms of money also seems to be tied in some way to the fact that assets exist on the books of the government and the banks equal to the amount of money outstanding, even though most of the assets themselves are no more than pieces of paper--.", P.3.
"Commercial banks create checkbook money whenever they grant a loan, simply by adding new deposit dollars in accounts on their books in exchange for a borrower's IOU.", p. 19.
"The 12 regional reserve banks aren't government institutions, but corporations nominally 'owned' by member commercial banks.", p. 27.)
Thank you so much Clark for educating us poor little peons.
I have a question for you now. If I am a Republicrat (whatever that is) then what are you? Are you some sort of enlightened being or something who is here to try to save all of us lowely morons?
As I stated before, Clark is a paid GOP poster (probably hired by Karl himself) here to single-handedly make libertarians look goofy. I am heading to the GOP blogs to do some "clarking" over there. I'm not getting paid in $$$ like Clark is, I'm just doing it for the sport.
I thought money was made at the BEP and coinage at those 3 mint factories.
Even if that's wrong, the connection between money creation and the original article isn't addressed. We don't get our oil from the middle east for the most part.
i.e. what's Clark's point?
"money and oil..oil and money.." isn't a point, it's a mindless bumper-sticker-soundbite-mantra-slogan... thing
And what's with the insults (Republicrat??)? Not sure I see a difference in that and the dailykos/freerepublic rhetoric. It's like reading the rejects on some small forum broken off from democraticunderground.
Would like to see the Libertarian *SOLUTIONS*. Can find whines about what everyone's doing wrong at moveon org.
Guess I'm off to research the Spanish Inquisition and see what put a stop to that, see if there's anything there that'd help. Better use of my time than sitting around calling my fellow countrymen "dunking finks" or whatever. yuk yuk
celumnaz WROTE: "Would like to see the Libertarian *SOLUTIONS*. Can find whines about what everyone's doing wrong at moveon org." (END)
LOL! PLEASE, before you offer up/approve any 'SOLUTIONS' (actually 'proposals') having to do with anything 'economic' PLEASE learn at least a little as to the nature, origin, etc. of just one 'dollar'..
(LOL! Republicrats don't even know that they don't know!) ;o)
Celumnaz belched: "Even if that's wrong, the connection between money creation and the original article isn't addressed. We don't get our oil from the middle east for the most part.
i.e. what's Clark's point?
"money and oil..oil and money.." isn't a point, it's a mindless bumper-sticker-soundbite-mantra-slogan... thing (END)
What's 'mindless' are people whose whole lives are wrapped up in the acqui$ition of some'thing' about which they are WORSE than ignorant!.. ;o)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul303.html
"In November 2000 Saddam Hussein demanded Euros for his oil. His arrogance was a threat to the dollar; his lack of any military might was never a threat. At the first cabinet meeting with the new administration in 2001, as reported by Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, the major topic was how we would get rid of Saddam Hussein – though there was no evidence whatsoever he posed a threat to us. This deep concern for Saddam Hussein surprised and shocked O’Neill.
It now is common knowledge that the immediate reaction of the administration after 9/11 revolved around how they could connect Saddam Hussein to the attacks, to justify an invasion and overthrow of his government. Even with no evidence of any connection to 9/11, or evidence of weapons of mass destruction, public and congressional support was generated through distortions and flat out misrepresentation of the facts to justify overthrowing Saddam Hussein.
There was no public talk of removing Saddam Hussein because of his attack on the integrity of the dollar as a reserve currency by selling oil in Euros. Many believe this was the real reason for our obsession with Iraq. I doubt it was the only reason, but it may well have played a significant role in our motivation to wage war. Within a very short period after the military victory, all Iraqi oil sales were carried out in dollars. The Euro was abandoned.
In 2001, Venezuela’s ambassador to Russia spoke of Venezuela switching to the Euro for all their oil sales. Within a year there was a coup attempt against Chavez, reportedly with assistance from our CIA..."
"Democratic reform in the Middle East must come from within, first starting with a liberalizing of the Islamic religion there. How does one exactly do this? Well, that's the million-dollar question..." - Andrew Davis
What is the Libertarian solution?
RE: What is the Libertarian solution?
Posted by: Celumnaz at August 15, 2007 10:02 AM
Non-intervention is a policy, not a solution.
It is not the place of the US to force 'solutions' on middle-east people who don't want to be 'solved'.
Clark, with all of the characters you've typed insulting people that they don't know the origin of a dollar, why don't you instead EDUCATE them about such. Considering how much you have typed to that regard over the last couple months, it seems you could have educated everyone to the point where your insults would no longer be necessary.
One more thing. Instead of just complaining about how dollars get created, why not offer a solution to your perceived problem. It just might be that you win people over to your side, rather than alienting EVERYBODY like you do now.
COACH DIMLY WROTE: "Considering how much you have typed to that regard over the last couple months, it seems you could have educated everyone to the point where your insults would no longer be necessary. (END)
Unfortunately, if appears to me that "abrasive" debating/talking points appear to 'work'..
I offer as evidence the likes of apparently wildly POPULAR Republicans/crats Ruse Limbaugh, Shill O'Lielly, Insane Hannity, etc. loud abrasive 'pontificators' (yes, aren't we all?)
It seems an unfortunate but obvious fact that people tend to be attracted to, or have been conditioned to, 'abrasive mayhem' in their 'media' choices..
I just give many Republicrats what they crave..(We focus-group tested this at The CLARK Institute of Monetary Reality)
On a more uplifting note: Can any of you even begin to comprehend what 3 hours/day of, for example, CLARK, instead of 3 Ruse Limbaugh hours would be like?..Imagine 'the microphone,' in the hands of someone, for example, who knew what 'a dollar was!' ;o)
Andrew has a good point here. In areas where extreme Islam holds sway, the ground is inhospitable to seeds of democracy. Presumably, that would apply to liberty as well.
Yet, that does not mean Jihadists are not a threat, and should not be on the receiving end of US military action. Suppose that Nazism had been more in tune with German culture, and Germans had really supported Nazism. That wouldn't mean, regime change was not appropriate. That would simply mean, the aftermath would have been messier. But reality isn't always convenient and often, answers are difficult to find.
The LNC and staff are not foreign policy experts, and do not represent an overwhelming majority of libertarians. In this instance, and their support of the Afghanistan liberation, they're right. But more often than not, they're wrong, and unnecessarily alienate 30-50% of LP members.
For what purpose? Going after Daily Kos voters? I don't think so--they already have the Green Party.
LP press releases on Iraq seldom get published, they merely serve to further divide the movement. They tend to be not well thought-out, and tend to echo Democrat Party talking points.
For a more robust discussion of such issues, please join our lively discussions at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Individual-Sovereignty/
KEVIN HALLUCINATED: "Suppose that Nazism had been more in tune with German culture, and Germans had really supported Nazism." (END)
LOL!..I seem to recall 'The Nazis' having just about as much popular support as the/?your stinking 'neocon faction'..the controlling faction in ?your stinking Republican Party..
Btw, despite howls of protest from ?your many stinking Republican media cheerleaders, there appears to be MANY similarities between the stinking "Nazis" and ?your stinking Republicans/crats with respect to aggressive, rabid, mindless nationalism, militarism, etc. ad nauseam..
Btw Republicans, please STFU about "the media" being 'against you'..i.e. 'the so-called 'liberal media' (in reality, 'media corporation$')..only a god-damned fool would swallow that!.. (but fortunately for you Republiclowns the gd fool picking's pretty good nowadays!)
And yes, I know, the Democreeps may be/are worse!..
(Btw, before 'we' have a 'third party' don't we need a second one?) ;o)
CLARK
You are mean and you're making me cry. I'm not sure what STFU means but my mom says it isn't very nice.
Pete, shouldn't you be watching ?your Republicrat hero/zero, TIM RUSSERT or something?..you know, so you can keep up with all "the important stuff.." ;o)
Clark: "On a more uplifting note: Can any of you even begin to comprehend what 3 hours/day of, for example, CLARK, instead of 3 Ruse Limbaugh hours would be like?..Imagine 'the microphone,' in the hands of someone, for example, who knew what 'a dollar was!'"
Nope, I can't. I don't like what Rush Limbaugh symbolizes, but at least he set a professional goal and worked to achieve it. You've never accomplished anything, Clark, and you never will. Unless you count issuing endless streams of insults online to be an accomplishment =)
Clark, who is Tim Russert?
JT BURPED: "..Rush Limbaugh....set a professional goal and worked to achieve it. You've never accomplished anything, Clark, and you never will. Unless you count issuing endless streams of insults online to be an accomplishment" (END)
Yet Goofus apparently finds his hero Limbaugh's "endless streams of insults on[air] to be an accomplishment!"..And btw, I'm fairly certain your god-damned fool Limbaugh doesn't even have a clue as to the nature, origin, etc. of even one 'dollar' despite his working his cake tunnel repeatedly about illion$! (he's apparently just as numb as you, JT!..small wonder he's one of your, i would bet, many idols)
(apparently it has to do with acquiring 'dollars' with JT and other Republicrats!..btw, 'dollars' are yet another $ubject about which JT and other Republicrats are apparently worse than merely ignorant!..i.e. they don't even under$tand what they really want!) ;o)
You had trouble understanding a post that was only 4 short lines, Clark? I guess so, since I specifically said I DON'T like Limbaugh in it. If you can't understand that simple post, I doubt that you know the nature of money (or how to dress yourself in the morning).
Clark is very selective in what he reads on here I think because he only adresses a few things. Ask him questions and he won't answer most of them.
Since you apparently won't tell my what your political affiliation is (I asked it about 10 posts ago) maybe you can at least tell us what you do. Shed some light on what qualifies you to educate all of us ignorant Republicrats, ya know?
Feel free to throw your regular insults and things before you answer if you feel you must. Just answer my questions.
Wow. No response. What a shocker.
MATT the 'crat ;o) WROTE: 'Since you apparently won't tell my what your political affiliation is (I asked it about 10 posts ago) maybe you can at least tell us what you do. Shed some light on what qualifies you to educate all of us ignorant Republicrats, ya know? (END)
LOL! (Apparently he wants to get per$onal! ?asking what 'I do' to acquire the, to him, mysterious, murky federal reserve token..)
I consider myself 'a libertarian' and I understand I am not going to 'educate you ignorant Republicrats' (your words)..
I can/will have some fun exposing monetary ignorance..and maybe learn a little more along the way..It seems a person must first come to the realization that they 'know that they don't know' before any honest 'journey of enlightenment' can begin..
As to any 'Republicrat credentials'..I would bet I possess more stinking, mostly worthless, "college degrees" than at least %98 of Republicratdom! ;o)
But who cares about that??? Deal with the words/thoughts, Republicrats!.. Quit $talling!..
Yet you still won't answer a simple question. Interesting.
..I am registered 'unenrolled' infrequent voter, you apparent nosy, red-herring strawman monger!
(Btw Matt, you don't have to tell me you're a registered Republicrat! I figured it out.)
(;o)
I am not a registered anything you moron. You are not as smart as you seem to think you are. I consider myself an independent if anything.
| 
Ya know, I took one class in college called "introduction to the Middle East". It was a great class, but even this most basic entry level class taught me enough about that region that I was able to see what was going to happen if we took Saddam out, and I predicted just that. If I, a lowely engineer with no political experience and very little political knowledge could see what was going to happen why couldn't the people running our country see it?
I sometimes find myself wondering if they did know what was going to happen and went ahead anyways for their own unknown reasons.
I imagine Clark could educate us all on this one...
Posted by: Matt at August 10, 2007 01:31 PM